Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
#1
12-31-2008, 09:11 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
It is past time to put the "hybrid premium" to rest and it turns out that Consumer Reports hands us the answer:
http://www.boston.com/business/marke..._to_breakeven/
I went to the Consumer Reports web site (fee based registration required) and copied all of the "Family Sedans" into a spreadsheet. The following is their "price" "$Avg" "model" where "$Avg." is the difference to the average cost of $25,313 for all cars in this group:
Price $Avg. Model
$31,995 $6,682 Nissan Altima V6
$31,450 $6,137 Buick LaCrosse
$30,797 $5,484 Subaru Legacy GT
$30,790 $5,477 Mazda6 V6
$30,667 $5,354 Toyota Camry Hybrid
$29,839 $4,526 Toyota Camry V6
$28,695 $3,382 Honda Accord V6
$28,605 $3,292 Volvo S40
$28,225 $2,912 Nissan Altima Hybrid
$28,045 $2,732 Chevrolet Malibu V6
$27,440 $2,127 Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
$27,350 $2,037 Dodge Avenger
$27,094 $1,781 Mitsubishi Galant V6
$26,840 $1,527 Chevrolet Impala
$26,820 $1,507 Saturn Aura XR V6
$26,590 $1,277 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
$26,435 $1,122 Hyundai Sonata V6
$26,025 $712 Mercury Milan V6
$26,025 $712 Ford Fusion V6
$25,989 $676 Pontiac G6 V6
$25,465 $152 Chrysler Sebring V6
$24,803 -$510 Toyota Prius Touring
$23,939 -$1,374 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
$23,900 -$1,413 Kia Optima V6
$23,585 -$1,728 Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
$23,580 -$1,733 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
$22,795 -$2,518 Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
$22,795 -$2,518 Kia Optima 4-cyl.
$22,705 -$2,608 Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
$22,625 -$2,688 Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
$22,052 -$3,261 Toyota Prius Base
$21,995 -$3,318 Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
$21,920 -$3,393 Mazda6 4-cyl.
$21,080 -$4,233 Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
$20,870 -$4,443 Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.
$20,785 -$4,528 Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
$20,735 -$4,578 Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
$20,342 -$4,971 Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl
The "$Avg." is the tested model price difference compared to the average price of all vehicles in the "Family Sedan" group. I find it amusing that both Prius are less expensive than the average price of the Consumer Reports group of Family Sedans.
Bob Wilson
ps. I sent this to "comments@globe.com"
http://www.boston.com/business/marke..._to_breakeven/
. . .
The cost of gas has dwindled since summer - when there were waiting lists for gas-electric cars such as Toyota's Prius - from more than $4 a gallon to an average of $1.66. That means the payback on a fuel-efficient hybrid, which cost about $4,000 more than a comparable gas-only car, is taking longer.
. . .
The cost of gas has dwindled since summer - when there were waiting lists for gas-electric cars such as Toyota's Prius - from more than $4 a gallon to an average of $1.66. That means the payback on a fuel-efficient hybrid, which cost about $4,000 more than a comparable gas-only car, is taking longer.
. . .
Price $Avg. Model
$31,995 $6,682 Nissan Altima V6
$31,450 $6,137 Buick LaCrosse
$30,797 $5,484 Subaru Legacy GT
$30,790 $5,477 Mazda6 V6
$30,667 $5,354 Toyota Camry Hybrid
$29,839 $4,526 Toyota Camry V6
$28,695 $3,382 Honda Accord V6
$28,605 $3,292 Volvo S40
$28,225 $2,912 Nissan Altima Hybrid
$28,045 $2,732 Chevrolet Malibu V6
$27,440 $2,127 Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
$27,350 $2,037 Dodge Avenger
$27,094 $1,781 Mitsubishi Galant V6
$26,840 $1,527 Chevrolet Impala
$26,820 $1,507 Saturn Aura XR V6
$26,590 $1,277 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
$26,435 $1,122 Hyundai Sonata V6
$26,025 $712 Mercury Milan V6
$26,025 $712 Ford Fusion V6
$25,989 $676 Pontiac G6 V6
$25,465 $152 Chrysler Sebring V6
$24,803 -$510 Toyota Prius Touring
$23,939 -$1,374 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
$23,900 -$1,413 Kia Optima V6
$23,585 -$1,728 Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
$23,580 -$1,733 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
$22,795 -$2,518 Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
$22,795 -$2,518 Kia Optima 4-cyl.
$22,705 -$2,608 Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
$22,625 -$2,688 Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
$22,052 -$3,261 Toyota Prius Base
$21,995 -$3,318 Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
$21,920 -$3,393 Mazda6 4-cyl.
$21,080 -$4,233 Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
$20,870 -$4,443 Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.
$20,785 -$4,528 Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
$20,735 -$4,578 Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
$20,342 -$4,971 Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl
The "$Avg." is the tested model price difference compared to the average price of all vehicles in the "Family Sedan" group. I find it amusing that both Prius are less expensive than the average price of the Consumer Reports group of Family Sedans.
Bob Wilson
ps. I sent this to "comments@globe.com"
Originally Posted by myself
Erin has made a mistake by claiming the Prius costs "about $4,000 more
than a comparable gas-only car" in the second paragraph of the article
"Longer road to breakeven." The Prius is classified as a "Family
Sedan" by the EPA:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/advancedSearch.htm - (select "Market class")
So I went to the Consumer Reports web site (fee based registration)
that reviews cars by class. The Consumer Reports web site requires fee
based registration but the pricing information is also found in the
January 2009 paper copy, Vol. 74, No. 1. What I found by looking at
their "as tested" versus the "average price" of all Family Sedans is
this:
Price $Avg. Model
$31,995 $6,682 Nissan Altima V6
$31,450 $6,137 Buick LaCrosse
$30,797 $5,484 Subaru Legacy GT
$30,790 $5,477 Mazda6 V6
$30,667 $5,354 Toyota Camry Hybrid
$29,839 $4,526 Toyota Camry V6
$28,695 $3,382 Honda Accord V6
$28,605 $3,292 Volvo S40
$28,225 $2,912 Nissan Altima Hybrid
$28,045 $2,732 Chevrolet Malibu V6
$27,440 $2,127 Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
$27,350 $2,037 Dodge Avenger
$27,094 $1,781 Mitsubishi Galant V6
$26,840 $1,527 Chevrolet Impala
$26,820 $1,507 Saturn Aura XR V6
$26,590 $1,277 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
$26,435 $1,122 Hyundai Sonata V6
$26,025 $712 Mercury Milan V6
$26,025 $712 Ford Fusion V6
$25,989 $676 Pontiac G6 V6
$25,465 $152 Chrysler Sebring V6
$24,803 -$510 Toyota Prius Touring
$23,939 -$1,374 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
$23,900 -$1,413 Kia Optima V6
$23,585 -$1,728 Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
$23,580 -$1,733 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
$22,795 -$2,518 Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
$22,795 -$2,518 Kia Optima 4-cyl.
$22,705 -$2,608 Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
$22,625 -$2,688 Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
$22,052 -$3,261 Toyota Prius Base
$21,995 -$3,318 Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
$21,920 -$3,393 Mazda6 4-cyl.
$21,080 -$4,233 Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
$20,870 -$4,443 Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.
$20,785 -$4,528 Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
$20,735 -$4,578 Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
$20,342 -$4,971 Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl.
You will notice both models of Prius are below the average price of
all "Family Sedans." Now there are two hybrid "Family Sedans" whose prices are
above the average but sad to say, Erin failed to identify either one
of them. He instead falsely claimed the Prius was $4,000 above an as
yet unnamed vehicle having no relationship to the "Family Sedan" group
of equivalent vehicles.
Perhaps Erin might take the EPA list of family sedans and looking up
the MSRP, rank all of them to see which ones are less expensive versus
more expensive. Then for fun, calculate the "pay back' for the least
expensive "Family Sedan", the Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl that gets 23
MPG. He would then be giving his readership an accurate story.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
625k Inc.
<address and stuff>
than a comparable gas-only car" in the second paragraph of the article
"Longer road to breakeven." The Prius is classified as a "Family
Sedan" by the EPA:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/advancedSearch.htm - (select "Market class")
So I went to the Consumer Reports web site (fee based registration)
that reviews cars by class. The Consumer Reports web site requires fee
based registration but the pricing information is also found in the
January 2009 paper copy, Vol. 74, No. 1. What I found by looking at
their "as tested" versus the "average price" of all Family Sedans is
this:
Price $Avg. Model
$31,995 $6,682 Nissan Altima V6
$31,450 $6,137 Buick LaCrosse
$30,797 $5,484 Subaru Legacy GT
$30,790 $5,477 Mazda6 V6
$30,667 $5,354 Toyota Camry Hybrid
$29,839 $4,526 Toyota Camry V6
$28,695 $3,382 Honda Accord V6
$28,605 $3,292 Volvo S40
$28,225 $2,912 Nissan Altima Hybrid
$28,045 $2,732 Chevrolet Malibu V6
$27,440 $2,127 Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
$27,350 $2,037 Dodge Avenger
$27,094 $1,781 Mitsubishi Galant V6
$26,840 $1,527 Chevrolet Impala
$26,820 $1,507 Saturn Aura XR V6
$26,590 $1,277 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
$26,435 $1,122 Hyundai Sonata V6
$26,025 $712 Mercury Milan V6
$26,025 $712 Ford Fusion V6
$25,989 $676 Pontiac G6 V6
$25,465 $152 Chrysler Sebring V6
$24,803 -$510 Toyota Prius Touring
$23,939 -$1,374 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
$23,900 -$1,413 Kia Optima V6
$23,585 -$1,728 Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
$23,580 -$1,733 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
$22,795 -$2,518 Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
$22,795 -$2,518 Kia Optima 4-cyl.
$22,705 -$2,608 Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
$22,625 -$2,688 Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
$22,052 -$3,261 Toyota Prius Base
$21,995 -$3,318 Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
$21,920 -$3,393 Mazda6 4-cyl.
$21,080 -$4,233 Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
$20,870 -$4,443 Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.
$20,785 -$4,528 Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
$20,735 -$4,578 Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
$20,415 -$4,898 Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
$20,342 -$4,971 Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl.
You will notice both models of Prius are below the average price of
all "Family Sedans." Now there are two hybrid "Family Sedans" whose prices are
above the average but sad to say, Erin failed to identify either one
of them. He instead falsely claimed the Prius was $4,000 above an as
yet unnamed vehicle having no relationship to the "Family Sedan" group
of equivalent vehicles.
Perhaps Erin might take the EPA list of family sedans and looking up
the MSRP, rank all of them to see which ones are less expensive versus
more expensive. Then for fun, calculate the "pay back' for the least
expensive "Family Sedan", the Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl that gets 23
MPG. He would then be giving his readership an accurate story.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
625k Inc.
<address and stuff>
Last edited by bwilson4web; 12-31-2008 at 09:43 AM.
#2
12-31-2008, 01:31 PM
Re: Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
Bob, the problem is that when matching hybrid to conventional for the Prius they choose the Corolla. In my opinion, this is a poor choice as the Prius is a viable--and in many cases MORE functional (cargo, etc.)--choice against the family sedans you compare it to. There is no comparison to the Corolla -- cargo wise and options wise.
I also take issue with their match for the Camry hybrid. Although Toyota's made the JBL/bluetooth/homelink package an option on the TCH now, it used to be included. A base hybrid versus a base gas model (V6 or I4) was not apples to apples. When I bought my TCH, a similarly-loaded gas I4 was about $1K less than my TCH. A similarly-loaded gas V6 was $3-4K more.
I also take issue with their match for the Camry hybrid. Although Toyota's made the JBL/bluetooth/homelink package an option on the TCH now, it used to be included. A base hybrid versus a base gas model (V6 or I4) was not apples to apples. When I bought my TCH, a similarly-loaded gas I4 was about $1K less than my TCH. A similarly-loaded gas V6 was $3-4K more.
#3
12-31-2008, 02:08 PM
Re: Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
Comparing apples to apples, there will always be a hybrid premium. A 1.3 kWh battery and a 500V electric motor don't come free.
The Prius is "midsize" in name only, and compared to traditional midsize family sedans (Camry, Accord, Fusion, etc), it asks consumers to compromise on all levels, except for fuel economy, of course. Midsize family sedans, like the Camry, are considerably wider, more refined, more comfortable, more powerful, and better handling. The closest car in the Toyota lineup to the Prius is the Matrix - another 5-door hatchback - which is much less expensive.
The Prius is "midsize" in name only, and compared to traditional midsize family sedans (Camry, Accord, Fusion, etc), it asks consumers to compromise on all levels, except for fuel economy, of course. Midsize family sedans, like the Camry, are considerably wider, more refined, more comfortable, more powerful, and better handling. The closest car in the Toyota lineup to the Prius is the Matrix - another 5-door hatchback - which is much less expensive.
#4
01-01-2009, 12:39 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
Hi,
First, we don't get to define the "market groups," which are defined by the EPA vehicle classifications. You may disagree with the vehicle assignments (since when have we ever agreed with a government decision) but that doesn't matter. The "market groups" are defined and the Matrix is in the "station wagon" group, not the Prius and Camry "family sedan" group.
This use of "market groups" is also backed up by Consumer Reports who used the same identifier, "family sedan" in their January 2009 article. Whether any of us agree or disagree with these list, both Consumer Reports and the EPA have the same members of the "family sedan" group. Individuals have no say in the members of these lists.
Regardless, I've gotten an e-mail from the reporter and we're engaged in a dialog. It is not my practice to publish someone else's e-mail without their permission but I'll share that the reporter used Edmunds.com and a Corolla, the "small car" group. I recommended they get Toyota dealer quotes for a base model Prius and the least expensive Camry, both in the "family sedan" group, but configure the base model Camry with the same options as are standard in the Prius (aka., automatic transmission, alloy wheels, rear spoiler, 6-CD changer.)
Bob Wilson
First, we don't get to define the "market groups," which are defined by the EPA vehicle classifications. You may disagree with the vehicle assignments (since when have we ever agreed with a government decision) but that doesn't matter. The "market groups" are defined and the Matrix is in the "station wagon" group, not the Prius and Camry "family sedan" group.
This use of "market groups" is also backed up by Consumer Reports who used the same identifier, "family sedan" in their January 2009 article. Whether any of us agree or disagree with these list, both Consumer Reports and the EPA have the same members of the "family sedan" group. Individuals have no say in the members of these lists.
Regardless, I've gotten an e-mail from the reporter and we're engaged in a dialog. It is not my practice to publish someone else's e-mail without their permission but I'll share that the reporter used Edmunds.com and a Corolla, the "small car" group. I recommended they get Toyota dealer quotes for a base model Prius and the least expensive Camry, both in the "family sedan" group, but configure the base model Camry with the same options as are standard in the Prius (aka., automatic transmission, alloy wheels, rear spoiler, 6-CD changer.)
Bob Wilson
#5
01-01-2009, 01:37 AM
Re: Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
Hi,
First, we don't get to define the "market groups," which are defined by the EPA vehicle classifications. You may disagree with the vehicle assignments (since when have we ever agreed with a government decision) but that doesn't matter. The "market groups" are defined and the Matrix is in the "station wagon" group, not the Prius and Camry "family sedan" group.
This use of "market groups" is also backed up by Consumer Reports who used the same identifier, "family sedan" in their January 2009 article. Whether any of us agree or disagree with these list, both Consumer Reports and the EPA have the same members of the "family sedan" group. Individuals have no say in the members of these lists.
Regardless, I've gotten an e-mail from the reporter and we're engaged in a dialog. It is not my practice to publish someone else's e-mail without their permission but I'll share that the reporter used Edmunds.com and a Corolla, the "small car" group. I recommended they get Toyota dealer quotes for a base model Prius and the least expensive Camry, both in the "family sedan" group, but configure the base model Camry with the same options as are standard in the Prius (aka., automatic transmission, alloy wheels, rear spoiler, 6-CD changer.)
Bob Wilson
First, we don't get to define the "market groups," which are defined by the EPA vehicle classifications. You may disagree with the vehicle assignments (since when have we ever agreed with a government decision) but that doesn't matter. The "market groups" are defined and the Matrix is in the "station wagon" group, not the Prius and Camry "family sedan" group.
This use of "market groups" is also backed up by Consumer Reports who used the same identifier, "family sedan" in their January 2009 article. Whether any of us agree or disagree with these list, both Consumer Reports and the EPA have the same members of the "family sedan" group. Individuals have no say in the members of these lists.
Regardless, I've gotten an e-mail from the reporter and we're engaged in a dialog. It is not my practice to publish someone else's e-mail without their permission but I'll share that the reporter used Edmunds.com and a Corolla, the "small car" group. I recommended they get Toyota dealer quotes for a base model Prius and the least expensive Camry, both in the "family sedan" group, but configure the base model Camry with the same options as are standard in the Prius (aka., automatic transmission, alloy wheels, rear spoiler, 6-CD changer.)
Bob Wilson
It's misleading to suggest the hybrid premium has been "killed", especially when there are countless examples that prove the contrary. Who wouldn't want 35% better fuel economy for free?
Last edited by empowah; 01-01-2009 at 01:39 AM.
#6
01-01-2009, 07:54 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: Killing the $4,000 hybrid 'premium'
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses
This is what I mean by there being an independent criteria, a standard, that define vehicles. So when someone chooses to compare vehicles from different classes, call them on it and cite the source.
Bob Wilson
This is what I mean by there being an independent criteria, a standard, that define vehicles. So when someone chooses to compare vehicles from different classes, call them on it and cite the source.
Bob Wilson
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