ok... so i think it was a turbo insight, and not an hch... here is where i first heard about it:


https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...ight#post29295


also, i'm of the opinion that modding is fine but for a hybrid the only mods that make sense to me are those that increase FE... but if you can get an increase in performance at little to no FE loss... hey, more power to you. What I don't get are those that mod a hybrid with 20+ inch rims and then complain about gas mileage.

 

The electric motors in the Prius serve a completely different purpose than the ones on the Civic. In reality, not much more effective horsepower comes from the batteries on the Prius, however, the Prius uses two motors as an integral aspect of the transmission -- it is an electric CVT, rather than a belt-driven CVT, which varies the amonut of torque to the wheels by continuously converting engine power at the crankshaft into electricity, then reconverting it back into rotation downstream on the drivertrain, where it is lower-geared. There is no physical shifting. This novel design is what allows them to keep the engine from spinnning over at low speeds, which contributes a lot to their city mileage. (However, at high speeds, they have to have the engine spinning, otherwise, the motors would not have enough torque to re-start the engine at such a fast RPM)

Honda's method works by integrating a motor into the flywheel, which acts as a permanent magnet, so it doesn't add much weight to put the motor in. With lithium batteries or ultracapacitors, honda's hybrid system would add very little weight to the car. This means a drop-in replacement of the motor with a larger one is absolutely impossible, as the entire thing is integrated into the engine block.

In the case of the insight, I know that helped their efficiency at steady highway speeds by widening the effective window for the Insight's lean burn technology, so that it could run a leaner, more efficient fuel mixture more often. I know the Prius engine runs with the intake valves open longer, turbocharging this woudl produce what is known as a Miller Cycle engine, whiich would bring its horsepower up to the same levels as a similar 1.5-1.8l engine without sacrificing efficiency. Also, on the 2006 Civic, turbocharging coudl help keep the engine under 3500rpms (where the vtec engine switches to less efficient cam timing) for accelerations and hill climbs, unless maximum power was absolutely neccesary (such as overtaking up a hill to pass a stalled out truck). A conventional engine might not see an efficiency boost from a turbo, but efficient ones like the Civic Hybrid or Prius engines, which are extremely efficient within certain narrow ranges of operation, but sensitive to load changes, definitely could, by widening those efficient ranges.

However, for someone who does slower, flatland driving all the time, similar to what would be seen on the EPA test, will probably see minimal benefit as the never need to push the engine that hard to begin with.

 

So I am still waiting for the folks at K&N to get back to me.

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Do not continue past this point if you fear what lies under your hood or are terrified of the warranty police.
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In the meantime, I have found an outfit that claims to have an open element solution that would eliminate the current (restrictive) air box and attach a new (No Oil Needed) cotton type cone shaped filter in its place.

Now, My only issue here is that I am not a big fan of what heat soak can do on intake air. Where our current air box is (and where the open element would go) is directly in the dead middle of the engine compartment with no fresh air to be had anywhere near it. I had this same issue in my Lincoln LS and was able to modify the factory air box to block off a lot of the heat soaked areas and allow a primary air intake from the outside of the engine compartment. Before I did this, I would suffer from detonation on hot days due to the temp of the incoming air.

I am 100% done with the entire debate regarding this. We all seem to disagree based on a lack of real world experience with this set up on these cars.

I was challenged to put my money where my mouth is...

Current average is 54.7 MPG and climbing. I have not yet had my first oil change that would complete the break in process.

Upon my first oil change, I will produce a digital picture on my dash reading after my first full tank of post break in gas. I will then install the open element filter solution and use 1 full tank of gas. I will then produce another digital image of my dash. I will return to the factor set up and use another tank of gas and post a 3rd image of the dash.

This will effectively tell us what to expect under normal circumstances before, during, and after the open element filter is installed.

The only thing that could alter this test is if K&N pony up a replacement panel filter. If they do, then I will run the exact same testing with their replacement panel filter and produce the same evidence. Then if I am feeling ambitious, I may do the open element to see if there is a difference there.

Does anyone see a more conclusive way for me to either prove or disprove the myth/facts of aftermarket filters?

 

This thread started out bad with all the bashing, but has actually turned out to be pretty good with the debate on whether or not modification of the intake and exhaust sides of the ICE in a hybrid actually provide any more peformance (actual HP or MPG).

Here's my take on the situation. Actually phoebeisis and tylers65 are both correct on their statements. But I would actually modify them both. Phoebeisis mentioned that any modification in the intake track of the engine would be negated by the throttle body being closed more. This is true to some extent. Modern computer-controlled ICE such as the engines in your hybrid have pretty much every variable of the combustion process controlled by the computer, thus eliminating much, but not all, of the inefficiency that could be present at any throttle position angle. The reason I say this eliminates much, but not all, of the inefficiency is due to how the computer calculates ignition timing and required fuel. These calculations are most often based upon the calculated load of the engine at any point in time. This is the variable that I think phoebeisis has not considered appropriatly. The ECU calculates load for the engine, which in turn dictates the amount of ignition advance (timing) and fuel that the engine will recieve. Under lower engine loads the ECU will provide the engine with little fuel and high ignition advance to decrease fuel consumption. Under higher loads the ECU provides increased fuel for more power and less ignition timing to reduce problems associated with detonation (pre-ignition). The throttle position of the engine, as well as the RPMs, air inlet temperature, and actual air flow into the engine are all monitered to calculate load by the ECU.

Now, by reducing, or eliminating, the inefficiency of the intake system forward of the throttle body you are in effect asking the engine to work less to create the same amount of power. Thus, in turn you would decrease the throttle postion to maintain the same amount of power as you would have needed before the modification (phoebeisis' point). Where I think phoebeisis argument goes wrong is that he is assuming that nothing else is happening within the ECU due to the decreased throttle position. Actually, the deceased throttle position has caused the ECU to recalculate load (actually a lower load) and decrease the amount of fuel and increase the ignition timing, thus reducing fuel consumption.

Now, I think the more appropriate question is whether or not all of this has a measurable gain on such a small engine as those in hybrids. Having seen sizable gains in large V8 motors it is possible that it could, but my guess that you won't know until you try it. Sorry if the post is long, but I thought it appropriate to explain.

Brad

 

I believe that the Honda engineers know more about this than any of us... and they're financially motivated to seek the highest FE and power possible (to beat the competition and sell more vehicles). If they could make a simple intake mod and get a measurable gain, why wouldn't they do it? Unless it cost too much to implement, or the modification would cause inefficiency in their production process (or negatively impact emissions or crash safety or long-term warranty & maintenance costs, etc., etc.) I see no reason why they wouldn't go with it.

Obviously there's a cost factor. Would it be worth it to add $500 to the cost of the car for a 1 mpg gain? Probably not. However, the intake mods I've read about here could be implemented for little cost (vs. the production cost of the current intake equipment).

Of course, engineers are human... and companies do dumb things sometimes (working with a bad vendor instead of a better one for political reasons, for example). From the rest of the engineering "package", however, I believe Honda does a very good job. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I just can't believe they'd overlook these type of mods. There's got to be some very good reason why our vehicles don't have them. I believe that reason is that the FE or power benefit just isn't there.

That said, I'll wait and see what measurable gains others get when they modify their vehicles!!!

 

Wrong! Car makers want the cheapest, easiest solution. 49-51MPG is good enough, and so it there semi beefed up engine in the 2006. Intake cost $100 to buy, and a stainless steel tubing (for exhaust) is cheap too. These could be easily added to 2006 hybrids for under $200. They could maybe cost less than $100. Honda, like other car makers, cut corners to squeeze the most out of their dollar.

 

You have to remember, though, that engineers are making a lot of compromises for the sake of packaging, overall aesthetics, and NHV (noise, harshness, vibration). Each car maker has their own standards for NHV that they meet as well as federal standards. So, they are probably giving up a little in the performance area to meet all of these requirements. Like I said before, I'm uncertain as to how much they are giving up in such a small engine as is in a hybrid auto, but there probably is some.

 

Actually, I work for an automotive and truck manufacturer. I can assure you that $100 to obtain a significant gain in FE and/or power would be accepted in a nanosecond!

Admittedly, Honda is already at the top of the FE pyramid with the HCHII, and they're already selling every one they can get their hands on, so there might not be much incentive, other than bragging rights. I can't speak for them... but they spend far more than $100 per new unit sold on advertising and dealer incentives. Seems logical that they'd pony up the $100 if the gain was significant. Heck, they could pass that on to the customer easily. I'd have paid a couple of hundred more for increased FE & / or power. I belive most would.

In addition, I'd guess that most of the mods mentioned here would show similar gains (to power or FE) on their non-hybrid models, too (I might be wrong on that... just guessing). They're not atop the FE pyramid there, so any gain on those vehicles would be a huge competitive advantage for them. Again, my conclusion is that we're not seeing these mods from them (or other manufacturers) because there's no significant gain. Just my opinion!

 

I agree with you on this and I have been reading all the many Post here on this Thread regarding these Mods.

Here is the other side of the coin that has not been mentioned so far. If you alter this HCH II from the Factory, And something goes wrong. Get ready for a (No-Warranty) situation from the Honda Dealer. I can assure you that if they determine that your Mods. caused the problem or problems you will be {Paying-the-Bill}. Now I already know from reading these Post that there is going to be all kinds of Very-Clever Remarks that are going to say this is not going to be the case. Think that if you want to but I have worked for a dealer for the past 10 Yrs. and I can tell you that you alter the vehicle and the dealer can and will Cancel/Void your warranty on the parts of the vehicle that you have Changed/Modified. They will also put a note in the computer that alerts the other Honda Dealers that the vehicle has been altered. So in closing on this comment. For you owners that are unaware of this you have now been so (Warned). Think along time before you start modifing your Brand New HCH II and take a chance on the Factory Warranty being Voided over {Maybe} increasing the Power or FE.

The comments made are for (Help and Assistance) not to be confused with a know it all attitude. That is not the case here and I am Telling/Sharing this info. with all because I have seen this done and believe me you can call anyone you want to and it's not going to change the situation. The dealer will get the 1st call as soon as you call Honda and complain. They call the dealer and if the dealer is correct and the vehicle has been altered from the factory assembly, trust me there went your Warranty.

Good-Luck

BTW, I realize that there will be many-many comments on what I just Posed. Post and comment all you want. I will not be the one that has the problem when I take my New HCH II to the dealer for repairs. {YOU-WILL}.

 

After markey parts DO NOT void your warrenty. It will only void the warrenty if the part caused the problem. I know this because I had to scare Nissan with this because I had after market headers, and my AC went out on my 350z. Read more here: http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon.htm

The bottom line is: If you don't know what your installing, and what it does... take it back. If you do install you need to know there is a BIG risk, and you could void your warrenty. There is NOTHING known on how HCH II will respond to any "performance parts," so you are taking a risk in buying a product that could be useless.