my engine has a rod knock
#41
09-26-2011, 10:39 PM
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Re: my engine has a rod knock
"surely a high cost failure trend of hybrid engines"
I've replaced "mode" with the emphasized "trend" since they share the same exact meaning. Prone, trend and mode all have interchangeable connotation.
It has long been known that people who start their engines cold and then immediately race them, significantly shorten the life of their engine. Most believe it is related to gunning the engine right after start when oil has not yet gotten to all of the bearings.
Ya think it might be related? Ya think?
Ya think it might be related? Ya think?
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 09-26-2011 at 10:45 PM.
#42
09-27-2011, 09:03 AM
Re: my engine has a rod knock
You misquote me. Trend & mode do not have the same meaning. Why don't you pull out a dictionary? While you're at it look up prone used in your context.
When you alter someone's words to fit your desire to be right you hurt yourself.
As to the failure mode itself: I did not mix two failure modes...
Here's a challenge: for the next year or so go out on a lonely stretch of road and come to a full stop, allow the engine to cycle off and stay off for 1-2 minutes, then punch the gas peddle all the way to the floor and hold it, and get up to, say, 45 MPH.
Do this, say, twice a month for the year. We'll then see what happens inside the engine.
Oh, and each time you do this keep in mind those immortal words of Inspector Callahan, SFPD (Movies): "Do you feel lucky today..."
As to sleeping at night? Your arrogance shines brightly.
I just do those things to make a car go for many miles. My commitment was to make those two cars last until kid #3 finished college. The Suburban was bought when kid #3 was just out of diapers. Since I didn't have to pay for more cars they made it. They & I are debt free partly as a result of that.
As to who needs to worry about the K&N filter? Not me my friend! The only worrying should be done by K&N since they could be held liable if something really odd happens like a traction battery fire. You know those guys in the Am Trial Lawyers Assn... It only takes one losing case.
A traction battery fire? The probability of that failure mode occurring is so remote...
Like I said "Do you feel lucky today?"
I suppose its nice that you don't have the hard edge of others posting in here... But you're just as disrespectful and arrogant. As a result you have gained a noted position on my ignore list, so I'll only see your posts when someone else quotes you.
When you alter someone's words to fit your desire to be right you hurt yourself.
As to the failure mode itself: I did not mix two failure modes...
Here's a challenge: for the next year or so go out on a lonely stretch of road and come to a full stop, allow the engine to cycle off and stay off for 1-2 minutes, then punch the gas peddle all the way to the floor and hold it, and get up to, say, 45 MPH.
Do this, say, twice a month for the year. We'll then see what happens inside the engine.
Oh, and each time you do this keep in mind those immortal words of Inspector Callahan, SFPD (Movies): "Do you feel lucky today..."
As to sleeping at night? Your arrogance shines brightly.
I just do those things to make a car go for many miles. My commitment was to make those two cars last until kid #3 finished college. The Suburban was bought when kid #3 was just out of diapers. Since I didn't have to pay for more cars they made it. They & I are debt free partly as a result of that.
As to who needs to worry about the K&N filter? Not me my friend! The only worrying should be done by K&N since they could be held liable if something really odd happens like a traction battery fire. You know those guys in the Am Trial Lawyers Assn... It only takes one losing case.
A traction battery fire? The probability of that failure mode occurring is so remote...
Like I said "Do you feel lucky today?"
I suppose its nice that you don't have the hard edge of others posting in here... But you're just as disrespectful and arrogant. As a result you have gained a noted position on my ignore list, so I'll only see your posts when someone else quotes you.
#43
09-27-2011, 09:12 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: my engine has a rod knock
Actually, you did.
"surely a high cost failure trend of hybrid engines"
I've replaced "mode" with the emphasized "trend" since they share the same exact meaning. Prone, trend and mode all have interchangeable connotation.
There is no relationship to bearing failure among FEH's vs regular Escapes or any other vehicle. Your hypothesis is reasonable but without any supporting evidence what so ever. Without any correlating evidence claim is invalid.
"surely a high cost failure trend of hybrid engines"
I've replaced "mode" with the emphasized "trend" since they share the same exact meaning. Prone, trend and mode all have interchangeable connotation.
There is no relationship to bearing failure among FEH's vs regular Escapes or any other vehicle. Your hypothesis is reasonable but without any supporting evidence what so ever. Without any correlating evidence claim is invalid.
#44
09-27-2011, 11:32 AM
Re: my engine has a rod knock
Just for reference, as it always helps to get context right.
mode (noun)
1. a manner of acting or doing; method; way: modern modes of transportation.
2. a particular type or form of something: Heat is a mode of motion.
3. a designated condition or status, as for performing a task or responding to a problem: a machine in the automatic mode.
4. Philosophy
a. appearance, form, or disposition taken by a thing, or by one of its essential properties or attributes.
b. (in the philosophy of Spinoza) one of the nonessential qualifications of God, contingent upon other modes. Compare attribute ( def. 9 ) .
5. Logic
a. modality ( def. 3 ) .
b. mood2 ( def. 2 ) .
trend (noun)
1. the general course or prevailing tendency; drift: trends in the teaching of foreign languages; the trend of events.
2. style or vogue: the new trend in women's apparel.
3. the general direction followed by a road, river, coastline, or the like.
trend (verb - used without object)
4. to have a general tendency, as events, conditions, etc.
5. to tend to take a particular direction; extend in some direction indicated.
6. to emerge as a popular trend; be currently popular: trending topics on the Internet; words that have trended this year.
7. to veer or turn off in a specified direction, as a river, mountain range, etc.: The river trends toward the southeast.
prone (adjective)
1. having a natural inclination or tendency to something; disposed; liable: to be prone to anger.
2. having the front or ventral part downward; lying face downward.
3. lying flat; prostrate.
4. having a downward direction or slope.
5. having the palm downward, as the hand.
mode (noun)
1. a manner of acting or doing; method; way: modern modes of transportation.
2. a particular type or form of something: Heat is a mode of motion.
3. a designated condition or status, as for performing a task or responding to a problem: a machine in the automatic mode.
4. Philosophy
a. appearance, form, or disposition taken by a thing, or by one of its essential properties or attributes.
b. (in the philosophy of Spinoza) one of the nonessential qualifications of God, contingent upon other modes. Compare attribute ( def. 9 ) .
5. Logic
a. modality ( def. 3 ) .
b. mood2 ( def. 2 ) .
trend (noun)
1. the general course or prevailing tendency; drift: trends in the teaching of foreign languages; the trend of events.
2. style or vogue: the new trend in women's apparel.
3. the general direction followed by a road, river, coastline, or the like.
trend (verb - used without object)
4. to have a general tendency, as events, conditions, etc.
5. to tend to take a particular direction; extend in some direction indicated.
6. to emerge as a popular trend; be currently popular: trending topics on the Internet; words that have trended this year.
7. to veer or turn off in a specified direction, as a river, mountain range, etc.: The river trends toward the southeast.
prone (adjective)
1. having a natural inclination or tendency to something; disposed; liable: to be prone to anger.
2. having the front or ventral part downward; lying face downward.
3. lying flat; prostrate.
4. having a downward direction or slope.
5. having the palm downward, as the hand.
#45
09-27-2011, 12:02 PM
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#46
09-27-2011, 12:31 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Re: my engine has a rod knock
There is no indication what so ever that FEH's suffer habitual bearing failure for lack of lubrication. If you have information contrary then present it.
Constructing something to resolve a problem which does not exist is a waste of time IMO. But it's his time to waste not mine.
The issue is claiming or inferring FEH's bearings, cylinder walls etc go dry to a degree of causing damage while in EV mode, dry as starting a cold engine can't be substantiated. It isn't factual by any indication of practice.
There have been many false claims in the last decade perpetrated against hybridsand and there is no idication this is any different. I've answered those claims too.
This isn't a personal matter, I believe Bill to be a very well educated, thoughtful, well meaning person and a valuable part of this community. His under lubrication theory is reasonable, but we should stick to facts as facts and theory as theory.
Constructing something to resolve a problem which does not exist is a waste of time IMO. But it's his time to waste not mine.
The issue is claiming or inferring FEH's bearings, cylinder walls etc go dry to a degree of causing damage while in EV mode, dry as starting a cold engine can't be substantiated. It isn't factual by any indication of practice.
There have been many false claims in the last decade perpetrated against hybridsand and there is no idication this is any different. I've answered those claims too.
This isn't a personal matter, I believe Bill to be a very well educated, thoughtful, well meaning person and a valuable part of this community. His under lubrication theory is reasonable, but we should stick to facts as facts and theory as theory.
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 09-27-2011 at 12:54 PM.
#47
09-27-2011, 03:10 PM
Re: my engine has a rod knock
Well stated Steve... I also second the part about Bill being a well educated, thoughtful and well meaning person.
Theory is just that - where's the evidence? I thought I offered up some pretty reasonable evidence with the NYC cab scenario as witnessed by me and at least one other on this thread. It was dismissed as "not germane to the issue." Yet your analogy of sitting for a few minutes and then taking off hard is exactly what I saw in NY. Cabbies would sit there waiting in line, stuck, not moving for minutes on end and then gas it like they were being chased by a madman. It was also pointed about (not by Bill but by a sympathizer) that the NYC cab example means nothing because we don't "know" that those vehicles aren't spinning bearings left and right. OK...
The NYC Cab acid test with 300 mile examples for sale on Ebay is the OVE (Objective Verifiable Evidence) I have offered up to dispute the "theory" that FEH's are prone (or whatever noun, verb, adjective fits) to spinning crank shaft bearings.
I read every post that was offered as evidence to the theory that there is a problem... What I found was that it has happened before in at least 3, possibly 4 cases documented on this forum. All of which involved an oil change that was completed by the same quickie lube chain establishment. That was the common thread, so my "theory" (of which I have as much verifiable proof as anyone else - none) is that Joe Lubejointtech might have forgotten something in the process of changing the oil. It's a pretty good theory that Bill himself admitted was quite probable in one particular thread. In fact, when the theory was offered that Ford just built a bad engine, Bill was quite adamant that there had to be some other reason for the failure.
Page 8 of the thread:
2006 Escape Hybrid: Catastrophic Engine failure @ 65,000 miles:
Bill Winney writes:
“My bet is clear: the Jiffy Lube thing is the cause. Not their oil but their cleanliness practices.”
Dang... Couldn't have said it better myself. Totally agree Bill.
Theory is just that - where's the evidence? I thought I offered up some pretty reasonable evidence with the NYC cab scenario as witnessed by me and at least one other on this thread. It was dismissed as "not germane to the issue." Yet your analogy of sitting for a few minutes and then taking off hard is exactly what I saw in NY. Cabbies would sit there waiting in line, stuck, not moving for minutes on end and then gas it like they were being chased by a madman. It was also pointed about (not by Bill but by a sympathizer) that the NYC cab example means nothing because we don't "know" that those vehicles aren't spinning bearings left and right. OK...
The NYC Cab acid test with 300 mile examples for sale on Ebay is the OVE (Objective Verifiable Evidence) I have offered up to dispute the "theory" that FEH's are prone (or whatever noun, verb, adjective fits) to spinning crank shaft bearings.
I read every post that was offered as evidence to the theory that there is a problem... What I found was that it has happened before in at least 3, possibly 4 cases documented on this forum. All of which involved an oil change that was completed by the same quickie lube chain establishment. That was the common thread, so my "theory" (of which I have as much verifiable proof as anyone else - none) is that Joe Lubejointtech might have forgotten something in the process of changing the oil. It's a pretty good theory that Bill himself admitted was quite probable in one particular thread. In fact, when the theory was offered that Ford just built a bad engine, Bill was quite adamant that there had to be some other reason for the failure.
Page 8 of the thread:
2006 Escape Hybrid: Catastrophic Engine failure @ 65,000 miles:
Bill Winney writes:
“My bet is clear: the Jiffy Lube thing is the cause. Not their oil but their cleanliness practices.”
Dang... Couldn't have said it better myself. Totally agree Bill.
Last edited by corski67; 09-27-2011 at 03:15 PM.
#48
09-27-2011, 07:19 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Re: my engine has a rod knock
I thought I offered up some pretty reasonable evidence with the NYC cab scenario as witnessed by me and at least one other on this thread. It was dismissed as "not germane to the issue." Yet your analogy of sitting for a few minutes and then taking off hard is exactly what I saw in NY. Cabbies would sit there waiting in line, stuck, not moving for minutes on end and then gas it like they were being chased by a madman. It was also pointed about (not by Bill but by a sympathizer) that the NYC cab example means nothing because we don't "know" that those vehicles aren't spinning bearings left and right. OK...
The NYC Cab acid test with 300 mile examples for sale on Ebay is the OVE (Objective Verifiable Evidence) I have offered up to dispute the "theory" that FEH's are prone (or whatever noun, verb, adjective fits) to spinning crank shaft bearings.
I read every post that was offered as evidence to the theory that there is a problem... What I found was that it has happened before in at least 3, possibly 4 cases documented on this forum. All of which involved an oil change that was completed by the same quickie lube chain establishment. That was the common thread, so my "theory" (of which I have as much verifiable proof as anyone else - none) is that Joe Lubejointtech might have forgotten something in the process of changing the oil. It's a pretty good theory that Bill himself admitted was quite probable in one particular thread. In fact, when the theory was offered that Ford just built a bad engine, Bill was quite adamant that there had to be some other reason for the failure.
Page 8 of the thread:
2006 Escape Hybrid: Catastrophic Engine failure @ 65,000 miles:
Bill Winney writes:
“My bet is clear: the Jiffy Lube thing is the cause. Not their oil but their cleanliness practices.”
Dang... Couldn't have said it better myself. Totally agree Bill.
The NYC Cab acid test with 300 mile examples for sale on Ebay is the OVE (Objective Verifiable Evidence) I have offered up to dispute the "theory" that FEH's are prone (or whatever noun, verb, adjective fits) to spinning crank shaft bearings.
I read every post that was offered as evidence to the theory that there is a problem... What I found was that it has happened before in at least 3, possibly 4 cases documented on this forum. All of which involved an oil change that was completed by the same quickie lube chain establishment. That was the common thread, so my "theory" (of which I have as much verifiable proof as anyone else - none) is that Joe Lubejointtech might have forgotten something in the process of changing the oil. It's a pretty good theory that Bill himself admitted was quite probable in one particular thread. In fact, when the theory was offered that Ford just built a bad engine, Bill was quite adamant that there had to be some other reason for the failure.
Page 8 of the thread:
2006 Escape Hybrid: Catastrophic Engine failure @ 65,000 miles:
Bill Winney writes:
“My bet is clear: the Jiffy Lube thing is the cause. Not their oil but their cleanliness practices.”
Dang... Couldn't have said it better myself. Totally agree Bill.
I did a Google, Yahoo and Bing search on Ford Escape Hybrid bearing failure to see for myself. Nothing was found. Zilch, except for this same thread.
https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...-hybrid-16959/
The Ford Escape Hybrids aren't just surviving, they're thriving. The vehicles are winning over cabbies and fleet owners, saving them thousands of dollars and making enthusiasts out of America's most jaded drivers.
Based on this success, even more hybrid taxis have been put to work. In New York, 550 hybrid taxis are now on duty, including 384 Escapes; in San Francisco, the fleet of 40 hybrid cabs is dominated by 30 Escapes.
Based on this success, even more hybrid taxis have been put to work. In New York, 550 hybrid taxis are now on duty, including 384 Escapes; in San Francisco, the fleet of 40 hybrid cabs is dominated by 30 Escapes.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/04/f...new-york-stre/
Ford Escape Hybrid taxis demonstrate durability on New York streets
One of the concerns people have about hybrid vehicles is the durability of the complex drivetrains. Ford is helping to put some of that concern to rest. Less than two years ago a fleet of eighteen Escape Hybrids joined the ranks of New York City taxis. In that short span of time each one of them has now completed over 175,000 miles of service and saved an estimated $250,000 in fuel costs. If a vehicle can survive the constant stop and go traffic of New York city streets while accumulating the same mileage as an average driver collects in 11 years, it's probably doing okay.
One of the concerns people have about hybrid vehicles is the durability of the complex drivetrains. Ford is helping to put some of that concern to rest. Less than two years ago a fleet of eighteen Escape Hybrids joined the ranks of New York City taxis. In that short span of time each one of them has now completed over 175,000 miles of service and saved an estimated $250,000 in fuel costs. If a vehicle can survive the constant stop and go traffic of New York city streets while accumulating the same mileage as an average driver collects in 11 years, it's probably doing okay.
Reliability
The 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid reliability score of 7.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
The 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid reliability score of 7.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
Consumer guide outlines a few general problems, mainly dealing with noise but no bearing failures.
I guess this boils down to whether you consider reports from actual NY cab fleet companies, consumer auto guides, JD Power and others as referemces, also the fact that Ford built 17,000 FEH's in only the first model year.
Are you really claiming that FEH's are prone to bearing failure based on eBay and 3-4 reports out of countless tens of thousands of units?
I did however come across this link:
http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/...ad.php?t=33580
Too bad it's not a hybrid, right? That would make 4-5 cases of HEH's with spun bearings out of zillions of units produced.
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 09-27-2011 at 07:47 PM.
#49
09-27-2011, 07:26 PM
Re: my engine has a rod knock
By my reading he was claiming exactly the opposite.
#50
09-27-2011, 07:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Re: my engine has a rod knock
Read:
Related to what?
I've yet to read any warnings to hybrid car drivers not to come off of an ICE off condition to a power demand or risk bearing failure from anywhere, except this thread. It already is or should be a design consideration from the Ford designers, and other hybrid vehicle disigners that this driving situation could exist in some conditions.
I suspect that's a reason they programmed an ICE off condition to be allowed only on a warmed up engine which the lubricant has already been flowing.
Since this isn't a habitual trouble, it is a non-issue.
It has long been known that people who start their engines cold and then immediately race them, significantly shorten the life of their engine. Most believe it is related to gunning the engine right after start when oil has not yet gotten to all of the bearings.
Ya think it might be related? Ya think?
Ya think it might be related? Ya think?
I've yet to read any warnings to hybrid car drivers not to come off of an ICE off condition to a power demand or risk bearing failure from anywhere, except this thread. It already is or should be a design consideration from the Ford designers, and other hybrid vehicle disigners that this driving situation could exist in some conditions.
I suspect that's a reason they programmed an ICE off condition to be allowed only on a warmed up engine which the lubricant has already been flowing.
Since this isn't a habitual trouble, it is a non-issue.
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 09-27-2011 at 08:19 PM.
