FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
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Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
Where are you getting your knowledge from, a book, etc. How do you know the the rear wheels get torque till 25+MPH, a SG-II?
If you have normally FWD, why would you need rear wheel torque from a dead stop, where's the need? Compared to a Hybrid FWD only, what's the improvement? 4WD/AWD is all about traction and control under abnormal driving conditions, so where's the need with a Hybrid?
If you have normally FWD, why would you need rear wheel torque from a dead stop, where's the need? Compared to a Hybrid FWD only, what's the improvement? 4WD/AWD is all about traction and control under abnormal driving conditions, so where's the need with a Hybrid?
A tad late, but I can answer that.
To reduce the potential for front wheelspin/slip during low speed acceleration and thereby reduce the instances of loss of directional control. And besides, what's the harm..??
Cadillac had to derate the Northstar engine in their FWD STS in low gear ratios for the very same reason, too many instances of accidents from loss of direction control.
Keep in mind the these hybrids have an extraordinary level of low speed TORQUE.
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Posts: 1,051
From: Michigan
Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
"..why would you need rear wheel torque from a dead stop, where's the need?.."
A tad late, but I can answer that.
To reduce the potential for front wheelspin/slip during low speed acceleration and thereby reduce the instances of loss of directional control. And besides, what's the harm..??
Cadillac had to derate the Northstar engine in their FWD STS in low gear ratios for the very same reason, too many instances of accidents from loss of direction control.
Keep in mind the these hybrids have an extraordinary level of low speed TORQUE.
A tad late, but I can answer that.
To reduce the potential for front wheelspin/slip during low speed acceleration and thereby reduce the instances of loss of directional control. And besides, what's the harm..??
Cadillac had to derate the Northstar engine in their FWD STS in low gear ratios for the very same reason, too many instances of accidents from loss of direction control.
Keep in mind the these hybrids have an extraordinary level of low speed TORQUE.
Direction control? That's what Ford's AdvanceTrac is supposed handle, checks your steering angle, checks if your really going where you aiming, etc., etc. Not much potential for front wheelspin/slip on dry hard pavement. If a FEH is different then why does it do the same thing on a FE??
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From: Beautiful Pacific NW
Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
Not much
Direction control? That's what Ford's AdvanceTrac is supposed handle, checks your steering angle, checks if your really going where you aiming, etc., etc. Not much potential for front wheelspin/slip on dry hard pavement. If a FEH is different then why does it do the same thing on a FE??
Direction control? That's what Ford's AdvanceTrac is supposed handle, checks your steering angle, checks if your really going where you aiming, etc., etc. Not much potential for front wheelspin/slip on dry hard pavement. If a FEH is different then why does it do the same thing on a FE??
"...not much potential..."
And on a dark night with street light blazings you know that how....??
Here in the NW we often have ducks that accidentally land on asphalt roads at night thinking it's water. Some ducks cannot "take wing" except on water so we transport them.
I don't really care how low the potential might be I just welcome the "feature".
"..if a FEH is different.."
Assuming this refers to the coupling of torque to the rear under low speed acceleration then I seem to remember an entire series of posts that you participated in regarding this very matter.
1. Commonality of "parts"...one firmware version..??
Again, even if the potential for wheelspin is low what's the harm in making the effort every time..?
I have little doubt that the FEH will be more prone to wheelspin under low speed acceleration were some of the torque not automatically routed to the rear. Now, why should go to the trouble have having two firmware versions, one for the FE and one for the FEH...?
Needless.
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Imported from Detroit
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,051
From: Michigan
Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
AdvanceTrac's stability control is not pre-emptive, only reactive, insofar as directional control is concerned. Automatically apportioning some of the engine torque to the rear at low speeds and during acceleration is a pre-emptive measure. I would like to think that if I try to accelerate too quickly on a wet street surface Ford would have my back. Certainly appears to be the case with disabling regen and sub-freezing climates.
"...not much potential..."
And on a dark night with street light blazings you know that how....??
Here in the NW we often have ducks that accidentally land on asphalt roads at night thinking it's water. Some ducks cannot "take wing" except on water so we transport them.
I don't really care how low the potential might be I just welcome the "feature".
"..if a FEH is different.."
Assuming this refers to the coupling of torque to the rear under low speed acceleration then I seem to remember an entire series of posts that you participated in regarding this very matter.
1. Commonality of "parts"...one firmware version..??
Again, even if the potential for wheelspin is low what's the harm in making the effort every time..?
I have little doubt that the FEH will be more prone to wheelspin under low speed acceleration were some of the torque not automatically routed to the rear. Now, why should go to the trouble have having two firmware versions, one for the FE and one for the FEH...?
Needless.
"...not much potential..."
And on a dark night with street light blazings you know that how....??
Here in the NW we often have ducks that accidentally land on asphalt roads at night thinking it's water. Some ducks cannot "take wing" except on water so we transport them.
I don't really care how low the potential might be I just welcome the "feature".
"..if a FEH is different.."
Assuming this refers to the coupling of torque to the rear under low speed acceleration then I seem to remember an entire series of posts that you participated in regarding this very matter.
1. Commonality of "parts"...one firmware version..??
Again, even if the potential for wheelspin is low what's the harm in making the effort every time..?
I have little doubt that the FEH will be more prone to wheelspin under low speed acceleration were some of the torque not automatically routed to the rear. Now, why should go to the trouble have having two firmware versions, one for the FE and one for the FEH...?
Needless.
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Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
wptski: It’s now clear why some of your posts seem odd for the FEH! You don’t have one!
The section of the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between the FEH and the standard automatic transmission version with respect to 4wd components.
In another thread you went after me over the “always on” part of the shop manual with respect to the 4WD feature. Your point about being “always on” was irrelevant there & here. Its like saying that a regular old automatic transmission is “always on” regardless of the gear selector.
Of course it is. The issue is what’s the commanded signal for torque and what controls that signal.
Desert Dog: if you aren’t willing to post your info for all to see, evaluate, try out & critique, then it may well be bogus. Please post your source or findings. Otherwise just keep it and don’t make any claims of some special authority or knowledge.
Of course if you do post it, and it stands critical review by folks here, then we’ll owe you one!
The section of the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between the FEH and the standard automatic transmission version with respect to 4wd components.
In another thread you went after me over the “always on” part of the shop manual with respect to the 4WD feature. Your point about being “always on” was irrelevant there & here. Its like saying that a regular old automatic transmission is “always on” regardless of the gear selector.
Of course it is. The issue is what’s the commanded signal for torque and what controls that signal.
Desert Dog: if you aren’t willing to post your info for all to see, evaluate, try out & critique, then it may well be bogus. Please post your source or findings. Otherwise just keep it and don’t make any claims of some special authority or knowledge.
Of course if you do post it, and it stands critical review by folks here, then we’ll owe you one!
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Imported from Detroit
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,051
From: Michigan
Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
wptski: It’s now clear why some of your posts seem odd for the FEH! You don’t have one!
The section of the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between the FEH and the standard automatic transmission version with respect to 4wd components.
In another thread you went after me over the “always on” part of the shop manual with respect to the 4WD feature. Your point about being “always on” was irrelevant there & here. Its like saying that a regular old automatic transmission is “always on” regardless of the gear selector.
Of course it is. The issue is what’s the commanded signal for torque and what controls that signal.
Desert Dog: if you aren’t willing to post your info for all to see, evaluate, try out & critique, then it may well be bogus. Please post your source or findings. Otherwise just keep it and don’t make any claims of some special authority or knowledge.
Of course if you do post it, and it stands critical review by folks here, then we’ll owe you one!
The section of the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between the FEH and the standard automatic transmission version with respect to 4wd components.
In another thread you went after me over the “always on” part of the shop manual with respect to the 4WD feature. Your point about being “always on” was irrelevant there & here. Its like saying that a regular old automatic transmission is “always on” regardless of the gear selector.
Of course it is. The issue is what’s the commanded signal for torque and what controls that signal.
Desert Dog: if you aren’t willing to post your info for all to see, evaluate, try out & critique, then it may well be bogus. Please post your source or findings. Otherwise just keep it and don’t make any claims of some special authority or knowledge.
Of course if you do post it, and it stands critical review by folks here, then we’ll owe you one!
You are correct! The manual doesn’t differentiate between the FEH and the standard automatic transmission version with respect to 4wd components. Why? Because it's the same system which is also you in other Ford products also. There may or may not be programming differences between vehicles.
I don't remember the "always on" point. The system generates rear wheel torque "every" time you leave a dead stop regardless if you have slippage at the front wheels.
You also said something about using the SG-II to monitor rear wheel torque. I get the feeling that you may not believe it? I had a scope on the signal, no doubt about that at all.
That's how/why this thread was started, because I didn't believe it (SG-II)either. I believed what I read that it was a "on demand" system, 4WD when you need it but that isn't the way it really works. I've yet to understand why Ford designed it to work this way. Some say that it improves handling. I could "maybe" go along with low speed manuvering but just driving straight, what's the need?
Congrats, you ran DesertDog from this forum, never to return again.
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Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
That doesn't apply to FWD and F/awd vehicles and I would especially add the hybrid versions of those to the list since they have such a great ability to generate an extraordinary high level of low speed torque.
So loss of traction on the front wheels is a much more serious matter than on the rear.
After you proved, confirmed, it to be so, the follow on question arose as to why the rear drive would be automatically coupled in when accelerating from a dead stop. Obviously that could ahve been done ONLY if the OAT were near or below freezing.
What's the saying..
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure..??
The couping is being use on the somewhat rare chance that unknown to the driver the surface is not tractive enough to support acceleration of the vehicle absent bringing up the traction coefficient.
The alternative is to go ahead and let wheelspin develop on those rare occassions and then HAMMER the brakes using TC and dethrottle the engine simultaneously.
Which would you prefer..??
A little tire "scrubbing", ~5% loss of tread life, each time you start out from a dead stop or a rare but totally appropriate reactive TC activation?
Last edited by wwest; Oct 2, 2009 at 08:24 AM.
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Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
[quote=stevedebi;202328]
I remembered a long post about this - and then realized that I did the post! Here is a quote:
Since I found that the Edmunds review has errors in describing the AWD on the FEH, I decided to post the following description. It is from the Ford handbook provided to salesmen, which describes the FEH.
Intelligent 4WD System
Escape Hybrid is a front-wheel drive vehicle with available Intelligent 4WD. The Intelligent 4WD System reacts to the driver. It enhances the level of traction and control in various driving conditions. On the highway, the vehicle is driven by the front wheels for efficiency. When increased handling or traction is required, the Intelligent 4WD System actively controls power to all four wheels independently. This provides a balanced level of control.
• Automatically sends power to the wheel or wheels with the best traction
• No driver-operated switch or button, the system is automatic
• Reacts quickly to changes in road conditions, enhancing control
• The system can even sense when wheel slip might occur and will start to transfer power even before the wheels begin to slip(***)
• Each wheel’s speed is monitored 200 times per second
• In normal conditions, the system maintains front-wheel drive
(FWD) operation
Performance and Handling
Intelligent 4WD enhances performance and handling.
• In a curve, the front wheels steer the vehicle to maintain direction, as well as propel the vehicle forward
• The Intelligent 4WD system sends power to the rear wheels, allowing the rear wheels to help propel the vehicle
• This helps improve overall handling by allowing the front tires to apply more available traction to steer the vehicle
Off-Road
When the adventure takes you off-road, traction becomes an important consideration. Gravel, sand, mud and snow all challenge a vehicle’s ability to maintain traction and control.
• Intelligent 4WD proactively compensates for these conditions, immediately transferring torque from front to rear, so all four wheels have power
• This allows the vehicle to maintain traction so the driver can maintain control throughout the off-road experience
Rain, Sleet or Snow
Weather conditions can create a slippery patch on the road surface.
• When the vehicle encounters these situations, Intelligent 4WD responds proactively within milliseconds, redirecting power to the appropriate wheels with the best traction
Normal Driving Conditions
Under normal conditions, Intelligent 4WD operates much like a front-wheel drive vehicle.
• The majority of power is sent to the front wheels
• The Intelligent 4WD system continuously monitors throttle position, steering angle and wheel speed to balance the engine’s output to the wheel(s) with the best traction
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/Web...vliG1@.f19601f
*** I would have used the term "predict" rather than "sense" but then maybe the FE/FEH does sense OAT as a "component" as to how much rear drive coupling to use in accordance with temperature....or rain(wipers on...??)...??
Someone with a scan guage want to put the OAT sensor in an ice bath for a few minutes and then check to see if the level of coupling to the rear with low speed acceleration to the rear increases...??
I remembered a long post about this - and then realized that I did the post! Here is a quote:
Since I found that the Edmunds review has errors in describing the AWD on the FEH, I decided to post the following description. It is from the Ford handbook provided to salesmen, which describes the FEH.
Intelligent 4WD System
Escape Hybrid is a front-wheel drive vehicle with available Intelligent 4WD. The Intelligent 4WD System reacts to the driver. It enhances the level of traction and control in various driving conditions. On the highway, the vehicle is driven by the front wheels for efficiency. When increased handling or traction is required, the Intelligent 4WD System actively controls power to all four wheels independently. This provides a balanced level of control.
• Automatically sends power to the wheel or wheels with the best traction
• No driver-operated switch or button, the system is automatic
• Reacts quickly to changes in road conditions, enhancing control
• The system can even sense when wheel slip might occur and will start to transfer power even before the wheels begin to slip(***)
• Each wheel’s speed is monitored 200 times per second
• In normal conditions, the system maintains front-wheel drive
(FWD) operation
Performance and Handling
Intelligent 4WD enhances performance and handling.
• In a curve, the front wheels steer the vehicle to maintain direction, as well as propel the vehicle forward
• The Intelligent 4WD system sends power to the rear wheels, allowing the rear wheels to help propel the vehicle
• This helps improve overall handling by allowing the front tires to apply more available traction to steer the vehicle
Off-Road
When the adventure takes you off-road, traction becomes an important consideration. Gravel, sand, mud and snow all challenge a vehicle’s ability to maintain traction and control.
• Intelligent 4WD proactively compensates for these conditions, immediately transferring torque from front to rear, so all four wheels have power
• This allows the vehicle to maintain traction so the driver can maintain control throughout the off-road experience
Rain, Sleet or Snow
Weather conditions can create a slippery patch on the road surface.
• When the vehicle encounters these situations, Intelligent 4WD responds proactively within milliseconds, redirecting power to the appropriate wheels with the best traction
Normal Driving Conditions
Under normal conditions, Intelligent 4WD operates much like a front-wheel drive vehicle.
• The majority of power is sent to the front wheels
• The Intelligent 4WD system continuously monitors throttle position, steering angle and wheel speed to balance the engine’s output to the wheel(s) with the best traction
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/Web...vliG1@.f19601f
Someone with a scan guage want to put the OAT sensor in an ice bath for a few minutes and then check to see if the level of coupling to the rear with low speed acceleration to the rear increases...??
Last edited by wwest; Oct 2, 2009 at 08:36 AM.
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Re: FEH/4WD/Scanguage-II
My purpose was to get desertdog to post his stuff so I can learn along with others. Didn’t necessarily intend to run him out. I am finding that there is a propensity for some to read the scangauge and presume too much knowledge.
My intent in pointing out that the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between these 4wd systems was to get folks to understand that it is precisely the same system. Thought it would be apparent.
My take on how this thing works is that it monitors the wheels thru the anti-lock brake sensors. When the system detects what Ford wanted it to, wheel spin, heavy load, etc, then it kicks in the rear axle. 10%, 40%, 80%… does it really make a difference?
I don’t have a scanguge. May eventually buy one, I have a system for a computer that can read out my Mustang & Suburban, but found them of lesser value in troubleshooting. The perception that the computer can tell all, as opposed to just paying attention to the car, leads some down spurious paths (ie… could not duplicate…).
My intent in pointing out that the shop manual doesn’t differentiate between these 4wd systems was to get folks to understand that it is precisely the same system. Thought it would be apparent.
My take on how this thing works is that it monitors the wheels thru the anti-lock brake sensors. When the system detects what Ford wanted it to, wheel spin, heavy load, etc, then it kicks in the rear axle. 10%, 40%, 80%… does it really make a difference?
I don’t have a scanguge. May eventually buy one, I have a system for a computer that can read out my Mustang & Suburban, but found them of lesser value in troubleshooting. The perception that the computer can tell all, as opposed to just paying attention to the car, leads some down spurious paths (ie… could not duplicate…).
