First off, I hope I have posted this thread in the right area of the forum...if not, I apologize and ask the admins to move it to the correct site.

Secondly, I created this thread so we can have a discussion/debate in a professional, easy going manner.

To the topic at hand:

As the title suggests, this is about the documentary called "Who Killed The Electric Car."...well sort of.

I have no doubt in my mind that the oil companies and auto manufacturers (many of which helped push the hybrid agenda over the electric technology) have been colluding wth each other (with administrations such as the current one) helping them at any cost to fulfill their agenda.

What turns my stomach is how we allow these goons to do what they are doing to us. All philosophical and dramatic flair aside, we all reside on this planet and we have nowhere to go. We're in serious trouble and I don't believe it's all made up.

Many right-wingers seem to have no concept of the seriousness of the issues humanity is going to face in the next 10-50 years. They think it's a joke...they think it's a joke to waste money on bettering the environment, on bettering the quality of people's lives, on bettering the way humanity co-exists on this silly, puny planet. Somehow, people who care about breathing clean air and enjoy nature are a bunch of wimps or liberal freaks.

They assume it's better to spend $750 Billion dollars a year on war, weapons, killing, maiming, creating misery around the world. That's money well spent.

Stunningly, half the world's population is in poverty, an 1/8th is starving. The other half is exceptionally good at wasting away resources. We're truly asleep at the wheel.

The EV1 was probably the best product GM has ever produced to date. It really was an accomplishment that by now, would have heralded incredible results given advances in battery technology, powertrain technology, etc.

Instead, what happened was CARB destroyed the ZEV mandate by 2003. Automakers AND dealers across the board sued California for placing such ludicrous requirements on the makers.

At the sametime that GM introduced the Hummer H2, it also closed down the EV1 factories and laid off all personel associated with the program. Honda, Toyota, Ford all followed suite and destroyed their EV cars as did GM.

The fact of the matter was that most people didn't need 7-8 passenger SUV's to drive 20-30 miles a day...EV's could do that easily 8 years ago.

To think that all this reliance on oil, on the way we use energy today, is in the hands of probably 20-30 people in top corporations...destroying our planet, our environment, our future. I would want to have a bright outlook on humanity but I simply am not able to bring myself to that point yet.

Thoughts?

 

The technology is so accessible and so affordable that you are seeing EV vehicle startups now. To me this is a major indication that there are issues other than those stated publicly as to why auto manufacturers arent making EVs.

For a long time the auto giants were driving our economy and thus wielded a proportionate amount of power in our government. Now that they are struggling they still have that clout, but few of the economic benefits that accompanied them in their heydays. They use this clout to prolong their death rattles, and push the technology they currently find most profitable.

We saw the Japanese car companies come here and present efficient vehicles and were very successful. They have rapidly improved quality and now put the American cars to shame. The Japanese cars are predominantly manufactured in America by American workers. No one should dispute that Japanese cars dominate that segment of the market. This is partially due to the American cars being low quality and low effeciency. The big 3 seem to have been unable to compete with the competition. They relied too heavily on government intervention to keep them competitive.

We are now seeing a push into the full size work truck market by the Japanese. This is the last refuge of their profits. The Japanese trucks are as powerful, more reliable and competitively priced.

The big 3 are in bad shape long term. They need to stop trying to establish profitability through regulation and legislation and start making quality cars that people want. There is no long term future in gas guzzling. If we modernized our CAFE standards to at least what china has mandated for their vehicles the big 3 would be ruined. The fact is that if we cant even make a car thats up to chinas standards how much respect can we have for ourselves as the world leader in technology and manufacture?

 

Hi,

Just a suggestion but you might use the search function and see some of the earlier discussions. Folks who have brought earlier facts and data may have something better to do than restate what had already been posted. However, the small amount of hybrid content suggests "Anything goes" would be a better forum.

It hasn't been until the price of oil became less-unreasonable, $2.25, that hybrid inventories built up again. But one of the Saudis claimed that they decided to use cheap oil to make Jimmy Carter's energy independence programs redundant. Sad to say, Reagan was a willing tool and we lost an opportunity. But I'd like to point out that hybrids are not the enemy.

When I drive at 30-38 mph, I'm typically cycling between gas and electric power. At 30 mph, over half of the trip is in electric mode.

We have Federal, State and local elections every two years. Also, we can vote with our wallets in the market place.

In Alabama, they also hunt and fish. They don't cotton to not having game or not eatable.

Well borrowed would be more accurate. As for the wisdom of it, every two years, we choose.

They don't vote in our elections.

I can't answer about the quality of the EV1. Apparently those who had them enjoyed them. But the lead-acid batteries were so 19th century. It was unseemly to destroy them instead of offering them for sale, even for salvage.

And apparently it worked.

I understand Toyota left a few around and I see them show up on Ebay from time-to-time.

Usually, a couple of times a year, we get enough time off to travel hundred of miles away. It is nice to use that commuting car for these long trips. Also, there was a statistic that most USA citizens move or change jobs every 18 months. That kind of mobility strongly encourages vehicles with longer ranges.

This year, I took two trips to Kansas and one to Washington DC. Each leg was over 700 miles but only cost about $35 each way. I could leave on my schedule and once there, get around quite easily. So the 533+ miles I get per tank makes my hybrid-electric quite a good deal.

If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? --Alexander Solzhenitsyn

I would encourage you, in the strongest terms, to move towards 'competence' and 'incompetence' and away from conspiracy thinking because it leaves leads to passive weakness and a loss of ability to deal with the facts and data. Scapegoating problems leads to blindness of dealing with reality and not doing what little can be done.

Bob Wilson

 

I apologize for placing it in the wrong forum. With that said, I did do a search prior to posting and no current topic addresses this particular topic or issue. Also, it is important to debate/discuss topics that are easily forgotten and pushed under the rug...they need to be brought up alot and often so people become aware and not just folks who posted earlier. I suppose that's the inherent redundancy of talking about an issue.

Hybrids have become our friends by virtue of not having any other choice. They are the best alternatives given to us.

That's very impressive...but driving like this was being accomplished by full electric vehicles a few years earlier. Granted, the range is not there but as was once said, the electric vehicle isn't for everyone...only for 90% of us who drive 100 miles a day or less.

Voting, IMO, does not do much...it can be someone's prerogative to think it does but it doesn't...if it did, we wouldn't have a 2 party system which acts identically to each other. Voting actually works in a democracy...not a plutocracy working under a quasi-capitalistic system.

That's really too bad....I'm sure they'd have many things to say differently than us.

That is very untrue regarding the batteries. GM released the EV1 for the first 2 years with batteries from Delco I believe. Stan Ovshinsky created the solid circuit battery system for the EV1 which was not used initially....causing the performance to be below what could have been from the get-go.


Very few....they did it more for PR than anything else.

Yes that is true....but the range of electric vehicles now meets 300 miles. Well in reach of most gasoline vehicles. Also, it's quite easy to simply rent a car for long trips when needed and drive an electric vehicle around local areas for the other 98% of the time.

No doubt...I can't disagree...but most people don't use hybrids. If you were to calculate that trip on a regular car or SUV it would be vastly different. BUT imagine using an electric vehicle all the time except for tthose trips.

I couldn't disagree enough with that statement. Sure, everyone has motives but are you willing to kill for it? Are you willing to create havoc, wars, etc.?

I find that rather offensive in the sense that not everything is a conspiracy. Some things are reality...and calling them conspiracies (in today's warped terms) is simply a denial of allowing oneself to not believe that it's really happening.

The word "conspiracy" has become a dirty word that has lost its definition over time and is now used by the same facists who run this administration - to make people who hint of change as being lunatics or perverts of the truth. If the last 6 years haven't convinced people of that then I'm not sure what will.

There has been a lot of competence and incompetence in history I'm sure...to write vast books about it. But likewise, I strongly encourage you, also in the strongest terms, to understand the difference between the competence and intent...and incompetence and failure. There is no scapegoating here. Not everything is done behind hidden doors...much of it is done in broad daylight...because it can be.

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”
Adolf Hitler

“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
Adolf Hitler

“The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.”
Adolf Hitler

I also recommend you listen to a talk given by Michael Parenti on KPFK.org.

You can find the link here (I suggest if you have fast download, skip to where he actually begins talking...I believe about 45 seconds into the broadcast or so).

http://kpfk.org/index.php?option=com...id=135&lang=en

Find the December 26th archives and heading called "4 Oclock Tuesdays - Alex Ko aka Radio Active"

Press play on the right of that link and listen.

 

Interesting topic but if you don't mind, I need to first address a couple of points in your post that are (whether intentional or unintentional) strongly biased. It's unfair to characterize folks on the 'right' as abusers of the environment. Likewise, it's also unfair to group those that only care about the environment as liberals. It's reallly a pet peive of mine on this forum that so many rush to equate all that's wrong with our world with GW (i.e., the leader of the "right-wingers"). Republicans and Democrats have been "asleep at the wheel" in this issue for decades. They've all been bought by big oil and American auto. They've all had their time in office, all had control of the House and Senate at one time or another, and all failed. So please, do not make this a political 'right vs. left' issue. The blame and corruption are equal, and goes back a lot farther than GW's tenure in office.

Interesting thing is that it's not just in the hands of 20-30 people. It's in the hands of ~300 million American citizens. Nothing speaks louder in this country than were we spend our money. Nothing speaks louder than were we place our vote. I don't know that we need more politicians to care - we need more people to care. Politicians will simply reflect what the majority of their voters care about.

 

Sorry but there is a lot of stuff far, far away from hybrid electrics. But a couple of points:

But today, there are over 500,000 hybrids in use world wide. The electric cars in contrast are notable by their absence. However, there is one available on Ebay:

Item number: 300062899957
"FOR SALE
Electric Vehicle
manufacturing business"

They were fine, lead-acid batteries in the first generation.

Yet they can't reach dealerships or market.
. . .
Sorry but this is the poster child for what Solzhinitsyn warned against. The claim that only "20-30 people" are responsible is the heart and soul, the justification for every murderous tyrant who if they could just get rid of the evil people, would make the earth a paradise. Unfortunately, it never stops and that is what Solzhinitsyn was warning about. Of course, by now you'll add me to your list . . . and their names are?

Mine is:
Bob Wilson

 

I agree that thread this probably belongs in the Anything Goes category.

I'm with Tim/Paul here - don't simply blame the current administration. The denial of oil issues started long, long ago, when it was presumed we (USA) would have cheap oil available for decades to come. And they were right. But this ignored the basic issue - the issue that one day bit us. The oil embargo. Jimmy Carter appeared to be on the right track immediately in its aftermath, but then Reagan (and the USA) was once-again played by OPEC. The lure of once again cheap oil squashed what little progress had been made by Carter. Bush the senior and Clinton and now GW have done little to improve our serious oil dependency. GW is as guilty, if not more so, than any of the others by siding with big-oil on almost everything, but this is not a 6-year-old problem. 9-11 served as a reminder of our vulnerability, and of the resources available to terrorists, but far too many people choose to ignore the issues, still. A passive approach to terrorism does not work. An active one is dangerous, and gut-wrenching. Terrorists are unbelievably well-funded nowadays.
We live in dangerous times. Many mistakes were made, some serious. And more mistakes will be made. This is a complex issue. But the most serious one would have been to do nothing.
We must attack the oil dependency aggressively. This is where we are failing miserably. As luck would have it, the recent Japanese hybrid cars may have started something in this country. They spur conversations. And sometimes, thinking.

 

Let's be sure to stay civil, and not suddenly bash one side or the other just because it's in our nature to do so.

As mentioned, there are a number of threads on the subject, yes, some of them are old, but this was a hotly debated documentry at the time, and things have cooled off.

*Boots it off to the proper forum.*

 

I just got "Who Killed" along with "An Inconvenient Truth" on DVD not long ago. It is likely that the DVD release sparked a new interest in this "old" topic.

One thing:

It is clear to me that technology is NOT the reason we don't have electric vehicles available. Even a car with only a 60 mile range would be perfect as a commuter for myself and for many, many others as well. If you can afford it, a second car could be used for longer trips and even if you can't afford it you could easily rent a gas car for $150 a week to go on the occasional longer trip. People are so set in their thinking (especially engineers!).

Keeping mouth shut about warmongering republicans who have the apperance of not caring about the environment..........

 

Dude, you've got it backwards, the original post was only devised to talk about warmongering republicans, the "Who Killed the Electric Car" title was the bait.