As near as I can tell this was posted to the appropriate forum. Just to clarify and confirm, you are upset that Hot Georgia has made you sick or uncomfortable and to remedy this feeling Hot Georgia should have it removed to prevent further discomfort?

Aren't you versed in diversity?

 

He might be able to do it himself.

vBulletin administrators (i.e. Jason) can allow the thread starter to delete a thread if they delete the first post. If Hot_Georgia wishes, he can try it. If it does not work, then Jason would have to delete the thread himself.

 

I went thru the motions on a thread I started and no, I can't delete a thread - only the administrator and possibly a moderator can do that.

 

No reason to delete this thread. This is the "Anything Goes" forum area, and if you want to RESPECTFULLY debate politics, then feel free to do so.

 

Ok - let's debate, then...


With the latest frenzy including Michael Moore, Moveon.org and others labeling the Iraq insurgents "Freedom fighters"....
And many more people trashing our troops (Torturers, occupiers etc), when was the last time your favorite National news program reported this?......I haven't heard it reported either. We're only allowed to hear the bad things.
I've compiled this from various news sources:

Care to list them ? Both the comments above and below ? Give me something else to refute – your earlier post on global warming (or the lack thereof, according to you) at least had sources listed. Egrigiously erroneous ones, and many without journalistic merit, but you had listed sources. I decided not to reply to that post – I won’t let this one go without a response, however, so I’ll start speaking some truth to your (supposed) power…

DIPLOMATIC
*47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq.
- Commerce is a great thing, huh ? What do you need in order to get a piece of those oil reserves (arguably Iraq’s one exportable resource) ? That’s right – diplomatic relations. Other nations aren’t idiots – they know they’ll need to make nice with both the puppets in charge (Iraq) and the occupying power (that would be the US).

*The Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
- See my earlier comment re: ‘puppet’. People attend meetings at my company all day (a large multinational that you’d instantly recognize, so similar to a government entity). Ask me how many things actually get done, or how many people actually have decision-making authority ?

GOVERNMENT
*The Iraqi government employs more than 1.2 million Iraqi people.

o Doing what ? Most of the reconstruction contracts are in the hands of US-based companies – Halliburton, Carlysle, Bearing Point, Bechtel, BKSH & Associates, Qualcomm, among others. I’m not even mentioning companies like CACI and Titan, who provide ‘security’ (they’re more like armed thugs who aren’t subject to MCC, as our troops are, or any body of law). Unemployment is one of the PRIME reasons why there are so many people turning to the insurgency – after 3 years of occupation, they’ve stopped waiting for the US to improve conditions. You’ve got US workers over there doing these jobs, and the enticement is $120K tax-free exempt income breaks.
o
*We helped build democracy at the grassroots, empowering the many enlightened and talented people of Iraq, men and women, who were repressed and silenced under Ba'athist rule.

 And now you’re about to see a fundamentalist Islamic republic, a full satellite of Iran, with Sharia becoming the rule of law. That’s democracy ? Look for the annexation of the two countries – after they endure their civil war, now nearly inevitable due to the minority Sunni population being shut out of the decision making.

*We have built local governments throughout the country, so they can deliver the essential services a modern Iraq needs. Our efforts have resulted in the formation of councils in 16 governates, 78 districts, 192 cities and sub-districts and 392 neighborhoods representing 80 percent of the country's population.

 Care to see the org chart for my company ? See my earlier point above. Tell me – what do these people actually do, besides act as figureheads (and probably not very visible ones at that, lest they be abducted / killed by the insurgency) ? Building a bureaucracy to replace a deposed one isn’t exactly a laudable goal.

*In Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

 Ditto, above.

*Nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning and the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent

 Please. Don’t even deign to suggest that the country is not under martial law, whether the magistrates are Iraqi figureheads, or actual US military tribunals.

*Foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.
 Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

 But they largely do not go anywhere outside the ‘Green Zone’, and they’re increasingly not even safe there. Thus, they’re largely…’going’

 *There is no Ministry of Information.

 No, not by that name, but they’ve been replaced with the various US government agencies who try and control / spin the info coming out of there. Gee – do *you* work for the government ?

*2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently.
 Since large areas of the country are rationed with 4hrs worth of electricity or less / day, can you supply some Nielsen / Arbitron figures on viewership ?

*The final area of great accomplishment in Iraq has been in fighting corruption. An aggressive training program is fighting corruption in police and security forces, and three institutions are addressing corruption in government.

- great. See if they can find the $16 *billion* that Paul Bremer and his cronies can’t seemingly account for, or the overcharges that companies like Halliburton submitted (and were paid for!)

 *The Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers.
 - Who can’t wear their uniforms or perform their duties in public, lest they be targeted.

 *There are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks.
- And who are taking that pay and disappearing once they’re done with training. Are you going to quote Rummy’s figures on ‘trained personnel’ ?

*Minority rights is a very sensitive issue in a country that is so torn apart by sectarian and national tensions, which were all exacerbated under (Saddam's) tyranny.
 - and further exacerbated by our ignorance / indifference to these same things

 *Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.
*For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
 - and it’s a struggle (soon to be a failing one) to keep the Shia from enacting revenge upon their oppressors

*Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
 - But, hey…we still had cause to use their grisly corpses for our own ends, right ? BTW, it’s ‘Qusay’

 *Children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.
 No – now they’re just murdered w/o cause (pick your entity)

*Political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
 - No – now they’re undergoing the same things for disagreeing with another entity. Seeing a pattern yet ?

*Millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.
 - And millions *more* now do – game’s the same, but the faces have changed.

*The threat of the use of WMD is gone.

 - One of your more egregious statements. The canard of WMD existence / capability has now been thoroughly disproven. Worse, the potential now firmly exists, and will *increase*, once Iran succeeds in acquiring nuclear weapons.

That’s all I have time for right now. I’ll address your other areas soon – count on it 

 

I think I might like to pipe in on at least one issue which is of considerable importance to me.....

Any "suffering" in Iraq right now is not being caused by the US Troops, nor by the Iraq Army or Police. That suffering is caused by the "terrorist insurgents" who are "insurging" aginst what, exactly? We and the good people of the Iraq govt are ATTEMPTING to hand them "freedom on a platter" and they are fighting us for that. Makes a LOT OF SENSE, huh? Not another drop of blood would spill if the "insurgent murderers" would just lie down their arms and accept FREEDOM like reasonable people.

This war did not go the expected way, but then, no war ever HAS. Freedom is not free, and once the Middle East is stabilized by the calming of Iraq, we will ALL be better off.

Leaving now or early before Iraq is governing itself peacefully would be a sure sign of weakness, and would allow the terrorists to rightfully claim "we made them leave before the job was completed, so there is no need for other terrorists to fear the USA."

And *NO ONE* can say that would be GOOD for America.

 

Thanks Reynolds.
I started this thread on a positive, up beat note to support our boys there.

There's alot of opinions on display here and really don't want it to degrade to something else. Nobodys going to change anyones mind.

 

You're very welcome. Those of us on the other side of the aisle see your post as agitprop for this administration's ill-advised misadventure which we never should have embarked upon - not as 'support our troops'. I keep seeing reference after reference to policy initiatives. So don't think you're going to change *our* mind, as well (that was your point, was it not ?)

If this administration wanted to 'support our troops', they could start by equipping them properly (3yrs in, we're *still* facing shortages of personal / vehicle armor), and taking care of them upon their return (by not funding the VA properly and closing hospitals).


'Support our troops' entails many things - but promoting a needless war which has had all of it's ever-changing justifications debunked - and rightfully so - is not one of them. We are worse, from a security standpoint (and many others) than we were before this war. And that's ostensibly the only reason why you embark on one.

Schadenfreude...

 

Incidents like this, unfortunately:
Not every incident creates a new insurgent, but it's this kind of thing that motivates the people into fighting. It's a harsh reality, but that's what's going on. I can't imagine what I'd do in those circumstances, but I know how I'd feel. Any way you look at it, it sucks.

It's a BAD catch-22 and that's why the war is dragging on for so long, always new insurgents, more insurgents, more fighting, more fighting, more innocents killed... and the cycle continues.

 

It's incidents like that which prove my point that the INSURGENTS are the cause of all of this !! Even this sad story of the young boy dying !! Here's why:

The Bradley was in that area patrolling because there were Insurgents to look for there in that neighborhood - a real or perceived danger, created by the Insurgents.

If the insurgents would not use the CITY where all the INNOCENTS live to wage their idiotic resistance, then nothing like this would happen.

Who cares more about the Iraqi people: people who kill innocents ON PURPOSE or US Troops who have NEVER killed an innocent ON PURPOSE?