You are the driver I always talk about when I argue that the GS Hybrid is good for the earth. But some people just don't get it. I think part of the problem is they just don't get YOU, so they demonize you, and that's the end of it. But the simple fact is, consumers like you exist, and if consumers like you can be given a good choice to make, and if you make it, then the world is a better place, even if it could have been even better had you completely changed your stipes (which is always possible).

I hope you didn't take any of that as an insult, because it was not intended to be one.

I don't mean to imply that consumers like you are "a different breed" or anything like that. I know that you are 90% the same as the guy who rides his bike to work and doesn't eat meat or processed foods. Hell, YOU probably prefer not to eat processed foods. :-)

I'm in the same boat as you re wanting a hybrid ES350, rather than a Camry. I just don't have the coin for the GS hybrid, and I'd really prefer MPG in the mid-30s, not the mid-20s. I'm even considering a Mini Cooper for a couple of years. But I might go for the Camry Hybrid. Would be interested to hear your thoughts as you drive your Camry.

cheers

 

So far I love my Camry. It is very comfortable and gets great mileage. The seats are comfortable, but not Lexus seats. The acceleration is there if you want it. (I think the TCH falls nicly between the performace of the 4cyl Camry and the V6 Camry. If Toyota had made the TCH slower than the 4 cyl, I would have either bought the V6 and given up some FE or gotten the MB E320 CDI. A coworker has the SE V6, and gets about 29 MPG on the hwy.) The features come close to having Lexus amminities, but not quite. To be honest, the Camry does everything I ask it to do, so I don't think waiting for Lexus to offer their version is worth it. When they do, I will look at it, but if they slant the hybrid technology towards performance too much like they have on all their other hybrids, I will just get another Camry. BTW, I just rolled 7,000 miles last night.

On a side note, I used to be a very aggresive driver. In our Audi I would typically drive about 75 - 90 MPG on the interstate. In my truck, I typically drive 75 - 80 MPH. In our mustang, I would drive (editied due to legal concerns). Now in the TCH, I am typically driving 60 - 65 MPH in a 70 speed limit, and about 55 - 65 in a 60 MPH speed limit. I attribute this mostly to the instantaneous MPG gauge that give you the necessary feedback to adjust your driving style to minimise fuel consumption. In a vehicle without this gauge you don't think about how your driving impacts FE until you get to the pump and think, "Man I wish I had not driven so hard and fast."

I was talking to my dad about this, and he has the same driving style I have (typically too aggresive). His comment was that ALL cars should have that guage so all people could adjust their driving style.

 

But you don't account for the fact that cars of twenty years ago weighed more than cars today (with the exception of the SUV/truck categories whose weight has gone up to comensurate with the porkiness of our societal "needs"). Today's cars, even with the "heavy" accessories you mention, are still lighter. Remember the VW beetle? That car was over 3000 pounds, and that's what they called a small car. That's heavy by today's small car standards, in fact putting it in today's second highest weight category, and it only had 60 HP.

So, NO, I do not accept your theory that today's cars need more HP than the cars of the past. Quite to the contrary, todays cars are lighter on average and have much better technology. So the fact that, on average, they have made such little progress in efficiency along with these other advances is, in a nutshell, dispicable. Yes there's been progress, but it's mostly been offset by beefing up power, counteracting the benefit.

Every year we consume more oil than the last... until that stops we're in trouble, and that isn't gonig to stop until people are willing to commit to changing it. And buying a 339 HP car is not going to help. Thinking of this car as an economy advancement is outright backward. It's simply a HP boost that's trying to be guilt-free, but to truly be economy-minded, half the power would still be obscene.

 

I think in the case of this particular car, what is is (or is not) is of no consequence to the overall issue (conservation, environment, take your pick). The price tag for this car puts into a range that I'd be willing to say that fewer than 10% of the population could afford. Look around on the highway - unless you're in LA or something, cars like this are VERY few and far between. If it got 80 MPG, it would still not register a blip against the overall consumption just because of numbers alone. It also seems a bit unproductive to pick on Corvettes and the like - again, they represent such a small % they couldn't help or hurt the planet if they got 2 MPG or 200.

The cars between $15 - 35K are what most folks drive. I think the problem children are trucks - 1/2 ton thru 3/4 ton. I'll pass 50 of them (or more accurately, be passed by them) before I see one 7-series or Corvette.

So I don't think this Lexus "represents" much of anything, good or bad. It's just not going to be on the road in any sufficient quantity to be measured on a local scale, let alone national or world.

 

Somebody said this a few pages ago:

"If you want people to drive green you have to make them want the vehicle."

I think that is spot-on. You cannot give everyone the choice between a 330HP gas guzzler, and a 130HP hybrid, and expect everyone to make the "right" choice. Some people simply want a luxury sedan that jumps when you touch the gas pedal. You will NEVER be able to change that. What you can do, however, is give every car type (e.g. - roadster, compact sedan, mid size sedan, luxury sedan, muscle car, mini suv, luxury suv, minivan) a "greener" alternative.

That is what this car does. Some people that otherwise would have bought the gas-guzzling version of this car (or some other brand of luxury sedan), are instead going to buy this hybrid version. That means less fuel consumption, and less emissions. And that is a good thing.

Would it be better if every single person in the US was willing to drive a 4 cylinder hybrid with 150 max HP? In my opinion, and in many of your opinions, yes. BUt that isn't the real world. You have to work with what you have (in terms of US population heh).

 

Yes, but some people want us to drive nothing but a 50 HP max hybrid.

 

Here's your logic applied to another situation:

"Yes officer I beat my wife and kids, but I didn't kill them."

Does that husband get a medal for being "nicer" than he could? NO. The person who buys a car with at least four times the HP needed to carry a person around, even if it is a hybrid, he gets no "green" medal because the car is wasteful. Yes he can choose that car if he wants, yes it might use less gas than some other more horribly wasteful car, but that shouldn't be winning any medals. There's always something out there that's worse by comparison so using that logic only allows you to excuse yourself from responsibility.

I do not buy the argument that people can't change. If people thought it was cool to get 45 mpg instead of getting a half second quarter mile then people would be lining up for real FE cars instead of Hemis. And what people think is cool is absolutely flexible. All it takes is a push in the right direction and people get on board. Advertisers have known this for years, and if you have any doubt look at any teenager now, then again in a couple months and you'll see two completely different looks.

I don't advocate the elimination of fast cars, luxury cars, or SUVs. All I advocate is to not give economy medals to cars that waste gas on superfluous power, no matter how its achieved. Economy medals should go to cars that go for economy priority (an actual reduction in gas used), not cars that get more power for the same gas, or cars that get more power gain per MPG hit. Neither of these two reduce gas consumption, they just help you get more for current or higher consumption and that DOES NOT reduce oil dependence like a car that actually reduces the amount of gas consumed. And that's what this argument is all about, reducing oil consumption, so cars that use technology to help consume more gas simply don't get my respect in that regard.

I appreciate that for some people no car will ever be powerful enough. I've given up on those people for wanting true fuel economy. But what I will not do is congratulate them for getting 339 HP out of 30 mpg. I'd give them a trophy if they decided, "hey I don't need 330 HP and could get 45 mpg if I could give up half that power", that's the kind of decision that actually deserves congratulation.

And yes, people can make choices like that. No not all of them will, and the ones who don't shouldn't be thinking they did something good for the world. So yes they can buy this 339 hp "hybrid" car, but they shouldn't be writing their award acceptance speech just yet, that's an activity reserved for the people who actually made a sacrifice to change the world.

 

The problem with your analagy is your are confusing legal obligations vs. moral obligations. I have a legal obligation to not beat my wife. I may have a moral obligation to not buy more of anything than I need.

But the last time I checked I was still living int the good old USA. That means I have the right to pursue happyness, even if it is the form of a 500 HP street legal race car.

 

There we have it. If you don't believe you have a moral obligation to not beat your wife, then I can understand why raping the earth is no problem for you. Legalities aside, there's a moral issue in both cases.

Herein lies the problem. Those who actually need laws to steer their ethical judgement are exactly those who are at the root of the problem. Running a "barely legal" lifestyle may keep a person out of jail, but it shouldn't win them any morality medals. Just because you have a right to do something does not make it moral. (And for the record, driving is not a right it's a privilege).

 

"I can understand why raping the earth is no problem for you."

Zimbop, you are totally out of line. You simply can't make a statement like that and expect to be taken seiously. Plus, you are insulting everyone else with your implication that anyone who doesn't share your views on what car to drive is "raping the planet."

I come to this site to learn about hybrid technology and hear about their experiences, not to be lectured by some self-appointed authority on morality.

If I want that kind of talk I'll hunt around for the rush limbaugh show.

You owe me, and everybody else, an apology. "ugh"