That would be ME . More like a 75 miles round-trip, though.
Keep in mind , as you are obviously a little steamed about this - these tax breaks will go away soon enough, based on the popularity of the vehicles. The Prius' credit will be totally gone within the next year or so, probably. The Honda's will take a little longer.

I HOPE you don't think this is the only stupid thing that the government does to waste our money. Personally, I don't consider this particular tax credit as stupid, but I'll leave that alone for now.
The tax loophole that let thousands buy 6,000+ pound super-duty trucks and write them off is just one VERY similar example - but far more wateful of our taxes. Why were we rewarding them? Many do it SIMPLY because Uncle Sam makes it SO affordable to drive a behemoth. Business/farm equipment my a$$.

 

I dislike speculation. I dislike unfair comparisons (apples to oranges). I dislike baseless assumptions (every dollar in the price of a car is energy). However, if you eliminate all of these, you will have nothing to say.

 

Private O,

It was a 2005 Scion xB configured with the same options as the 2003 Prius. That was the alternative, 1500 cc engine car we were looking at.

In my case, none within the next 14,000 miles left on my transmission and battery warrantee. After that, the going Ebay price is $500, well within the annual insurance and gas savings.

It was a warrantee replacement. Nice of them to honor a business relationship. But batteries from salvage vehicles show up on Ebay for quite reasonable prices.

Not really. No one expects anything but softball setups from you.

Obviously the cabs cover at least 100 miles per day, probably a lot more. Ford is actively selling their Ford Escapes for taxi fleets.

Only the manual transmission Echos. Automatics get a lot worse and the Prius is also an automatic.

Bob Wilson

 

Well let's see, how many miles on that Tacoma?

To reach the 32.1 of our Echo, you will have to achieve 36 MPG for the same number of miles you've already driven your Tacoma. You'll have to improve your MPG by about 8 MPG. LOL!

Bob Wilson

 

Sorry. Speculation is required, unless you can tell the future.

I don't think every dollar in the price of a car is energy, but I'm confident it is a high percentage. Of course, all one can do is speculate.

Are you telling me the average hybrid owner will recoup their original investment? If so, you're speculating.

Are you telling me that over the lifecycle of a typcial hybrid, the greenhouse gas emissions is lower? If so, you're speculating.

Nobody here seems to be able to come up with a good argument proving either of these points, and yet they are the prime reasons to buy a hybrid. They just want to complain anytime someone says something contrary to their "beliefs".

 

This is against my better judgement, but I can't resist.

No more or less than any other unknown in a car. Heck, my 92 Voyager went through three transmissions in 70K miles due a design defect. I didn't exactly expect that when I dropped $15K to buy it. You wouldn't think a transmission would be that much of an unknown quantity, but there I was. Sure, I'll give you the batteries are an unknown, but no more or less of a crap-shoot you get with any other vehicle.

Again, no more or less than another car of equivalent size. It's an electric motor and batteries, not a nuclear reactor. Now I don't have any data, but neither to do. So I guess we can agree to disagree. These items are not difficult to manufacture - they are difficult to engineer and design into the car.
Don't care. Really. Why does this matter? Somehow they figured out how to make it profitable. Good for them.
Two manufacturers with sterling reliability and quality reputations + electric motor + batteries. I feel pretty good. They have as good a track record as any. Not to mention the many hybrids on this site with 100K+ miles. That puts them 25% better than my van, which couldn't seem to manage a simple 4 speed transmission.
Yes, if the batteries are a bust and expensive to replace, our cars won't be worth much in resale unless they are fixed. However, given Toyota and Honda seem to be in this for the long haul, the worst thing they could let happen is allow the bottom to drop out of the market due to faulty batteries. If they are interested in selling these cars 5 years from now, they'll make sure we are taken care of.
No more than the billion cell phone batteries in use. These batteries don't even register a blip on the global scale.
If the batteries are reasonable to replace at the 8-10 year mark, then they'll run as long as other Hondas and Toyotas. That is, forever.
Will continue to go up.
Probably. I don't get the preoccupation with the CO2 output of manufacturing these items. They're batteries.

Sure. Adopting any new technology is. But I've been treated much worse by products far less speculative. And I like my car. I save $600 a year in gas. And even if the total CO2/energy cost was a push, it's a step in the right direction to technologies that will do even better.

 

Please reread my whole post and you will find that my Camry Hybrid will have paid for its additional initial cost before by next income tax filing, and within a year or two total if you ignore the tax credit. That is my situation based on the closest acceptable alternative that met my minimum requirements (a Camry XLE 6 cyl).

Also, the Camry 4 cyl and the Camry Hybrid do not have the identical ICE. The block is nearly identical, but the bore is different to allow the same compression ratio with the Atkinson valve timing (resulting in a greater expansion ratio). It is the Atkinson cycle that allows the engine to burn fuel with significantly less emissions, but does not add to the production cost (or CO2 emissions during production) of the engine (no additional or more complex components beyond the compression release mechanism for rapid starting, just different cam and stroke). To further improve the efficiency of the engine, the CVT allows operation to stay in optimum RPM ranges which are not appropriate to the Otto cycle version of the engine. Since the CVT is really a fixed ratio planetary power splitter which has no clutch or other frictional components, this tranny should be significantly more reliable than a conventional tranny with clutch and syncros (manual) or with torque converter and bands and clutch (auto). That is not to say the entire drive train is more reliable, but the components having more speculative reliability (electronics/batteries/motors) are covered under the 100K mile warranty.

It is reasonable for me to assume that this car is cheaper for me than the alternative in the short run, and even more so in the long run. My insurance is lower, my fuel costs are lower, my maintenance costs for the first 100K miles are most likely lower (if only for the brake pads!), and my trade value in probably six years (my average time with a car) is likely to be higher than the most similar non-hybrid vehicle I would have considered purchasing.

With that said, it is my firm belief that the overall CO2 and other pollutants associated with the production, use (the biggest total contributor), and termination of this vehicle is substantially less than the alternative XLE V6 model, and that happens to be the number one incentive I had for my purchase. However, in hind sight, the great pleasure I have operating this technological marvel is the best reason to own one! Saving fuel is a most exciting and pleasantly challenging sport that I never imagined I would enjoy pursuing, but I sure do.

-- Alan

 

Also against my better judgement Capt. Obvious, when are you going to do something other than compulsively argue on and on? I wish you had posts of a positve nature, but if they exist they are rare. Isn't it "obvious" that this forum is a place for hybrid drivers, enthuasists, and people considering joining their ranks? We have answered plenty of your questions, even though you contempously ignore answers you dislike. Now would you be so kind as to answer one of ours in a coherant, non-flame baiting manner?

 

With this sweet little 4 banger anything seems possible, I got 36 on a 50 mile trip a few weeks ago with lots of hills and I'm pulling off 34 typically to and from work.

If I was in Alabama I wouldn't be taking the winter hit I do here. I kept my 88 Ram-50 for 17 years and 180K, I have many years and miles to go bring that average up.

 

Absolutely. This is why I think the econo-box comparison falls down. I get to drive a regular sized car, with decent power, respectable safety, with adequate options and comfort. It's a unique car that's put a bit of excitement in what would otherwise be a routine car owning experience. All that and 46 mpg. I also agree with your point that the media takes a very one dimensional view of the purchase decision.