What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Tim
Absolutely. This is why I think the econo-box comparison falls down. I get to drive a regular sized car, with decent power, respectable safety, with adequate options and comfort. It's a unique car that's put a bit of excitement in what would otherwise be a routine car owning experience. All that and 46 mpg. I also agree with your point that the media takes a very one dimensional view of the purchase decision.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
I think Civic LX to Civic Hybrid is fair enough.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
I think Civic LX to Civic Hybrid is fair enough. I wouldn't compare a current Civic to an Echo... the Civic is clearly a cut above.
My HCH has power-everything, 110 HP, air bags, antilock brakes, is quiet and comfortable for a 6-7 hour drive.
These two cars just don't compare.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
For sure, not an opinion but a fact - An Echo is LESS OF A CAR than any model Civic. FAR LESS of a car than the HCH.
Anyone who disbelieves that fact is not seeing Reality.
Anyone who disbelieves that fact is not seeing Reality.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
Please reread my whole post and you will find that my Camry Hybrid will have paid for its additional initial cost before by next income tax filing, and within a year or two total if you ignore the tax credit. That is my situation based on the closest acceptable alternative that met my minimum requirements (a Camry XLE 6 cyl).
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
Also, the Camry 4 cyl and the Camry Hybrid do not have the identical ICE. The block is nearly identical, but the bore is different to allow the same compression ratio with the Atkinson valve timing (resulting in a greater expansion ratio). It is the Atkinson cycle that allows the engine to burn fuel with significantly less emissions, but does not add to the production cost (or CO2 emissions during production) of the engine (no additional or more complex components beyond the compression release mechanism for rapid starting, just different cam and stroke). To further improve the efficiency of the engine, the CVT allows operation to stay in optimum RPM ranges which are not appropriate to the Otto cycle version of the engine. Since the CVT is really a fixed ratio planetary power splitter which has no clutch or other frictional components, this tranny should be significantly more reliable than a conventional tranny with clutch and syncros (manual) or with torque converter and bands and clutch (auto). That is not to say the entire drive train is more reliable, but the components having more speculative reliability (electronics/batteries/motors) are covered under the 100K mile warranty.
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
It is reasonable for me to assume that this car is cheaper for me than the alternative in the short run, and even more so in the long run. My insurance is lower, my fuel costs are lower, my maintenance costs for the first 100K miles are most likely lower (if only for the brake pads!), and my trade value in probably six years (my average time with a car) is likely to be higher than the most similar non-hybrid vehicle I would have considered purchasing.
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
With that said, it is my firm belief that the overall CO2 and other pollutants associated with the production, use (the biggest total contributor), and termination of this vehicle is substantially less than the alternative XLE V6 model, and that happens to be the number one incentive I had for my purchase. However, in hind sight, the great pleasure I have operating this technological marvel is the best reason to own one! Saving fuel is a most exciting and pleasantly challenging sport that I never imagined I would enjoy pursuing, but I sure do.
-- Alan
-- Alan
Last edited by Chilly; Aug 11, 2006 at 11:56 AM.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
One more quick point.
The V6 Camry is 268 hp with a 0-60 around 7 sec
The 4 cyl Camry is 158 hp with a 0-60 around 10 sec
The Hybrid is 187 hp with a 0-60 at 9.4 sec.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehi...180.A9947.html
The TCH is closer much closer in performance to the 4 cyl than to the V6. Just one more reason why this is the more accurate comparison of these vehicles.
The V6 Camry is 268 hp with a 0-60 around 7 sec
The 4 cyl Camry is 158 hp with a 0-60 around 10 sec
The Hybrid is 187 hp with a 0-60 at 9.4 sec.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehi...180.A9947.html
The TCH is closer much closer in performance to the 4 cyl than to the V6. Just one more reason why this is the more accurate comparison of these vehicles.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Chilly
Here are the links to the specs.
MMH
http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/marin...ifications.asp
MM
http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/mariner/models.asp
No but we are trying to give a fair comparison of vehicles, inorder to determine how long it will take to recoup the cost with gas savings. So comparing HP and acceleration times gives you a better indication of which model to compare the MMH to.
I believe the numbers above support my arguement.
The MMH has much closer performance numbers (8.9 secs) to the 4 cyl (9.1 sec) than to the V6 (8.1 sec).
The fact that the hybrid only adds .2 secs to the acceleration of the vehicle, along with the HP numbers, validates that the MMH performance is more comparable to the 4 cyl model, which is why those two models should be compared together if you are ONLY trying to determine the question of cost savings in gas.
MMH
http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/marin...ifications.asp
MM
http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/mariner/models.asp
No but we are trying to give a fair comparison of vehicles, inorder to determine how long it will take to recoup the cost with gas savings. So comparing HP and acceleration times gives you a better indication of which model to compare the MMH to.
I believe the numbers above support my arguement.
The MMH has much closer performance numbers (8.9 secs) to the 4 cyl (9.1 sec) than to the V6 (8.1 sec).
The fact that the hybrid only adds .2 secs to the acceleration of the vehicle, along with the HP numbers, validates that the MMH performance is more comparable to the 4 cyl model, which is why those two models should be compared together if you are ONLY trying to determine the question of cost savings in gas.
For the record, I didn't buy the Hybrid to save money, but it is nice to know that it isn't going to cost me any more money to produce less pollution and send less money to the middle east.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Tim K
Even though I disagree with the comparison, for arguments' sake I will go along with it anyway. Mercury, however only offers the 4cyl on its most basic model which is totaly stripped down so we can't really compare it. Ford does offer the option of a 4 or 6 cyl on the Escape, so I will use those numbers for my evaluation. The cost difference of the 4cyl and the 6cyl on the Escape is $855 (MSRP). So even taking that amount off the price of an identical Mariner with a V6 makes the "Hybrid Premium" less than $2000 after state and federal credits.
For the record, I didn't buy the Hybrid to save money, but it is nice to know that it isn't going to cost me any more money to produce less pollution and send less money to the middle east.
For the record, I didn't buy the Hybrid to save money, but it is nice to know that it isn't going to cost me any more money to produce less pollution and send less money to the middle east.
The only thing I would caution you with in your evaluation is not to use MSRP but True Market Values, which are a more reasonable estimation of what you would pay for the vehicle. Most Hybrids sellf or closer to MSRP, in general, and you can usually get most non-hybrids at values closer to invoice. This isn't always the case, and some people will get really go values on their Hybrids, I paid $300 over invoice for mine, but I believe the general rule of thumb should be to use TMV.
For the Escape according to Edmunds
FEH AWD (no options added) TMV = $27,780 (MSRP $27,845)
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/ford/escapehybrid/100726885/optionsresults.html?action=2
FE XLT AWD 4 -cyl (ALL options added) TMV = $24,467 (MSRP $27,040)
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/ford/escape/100726652/optionsresults.html?action=2
As you can see the Hybrid is much closer to MSRP than the non-hybrid. And this is comparing the most basic FEH to a full loaded XLT. The price difference is most likely even greater if I were to take the time to synchronize options as best as possible.
And for the record I also didn't by my hybrid to save money either. I bought it because it was the car I wanted and that really is all that matters in the end. I hope you are enjoying yours as much as I am mine.
Last edited by Chilly; Aug 11, 2006 at 01:45 PM.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Chilly
The only thing I would caution you with in your evaluation is not to use MSRP but True Market Values, which are a more reasonable estimation of what you would pay for the vehicle. Most Hybrids sellf or closer to MSRP, in general, and you can usually get most non-hybrids at values closer to invoice. This isn't always the case, and some people will get really go values on their Hybrids, I paid $300 over invoice for mine, but I believe the general rule of thumb should be to use TMV.
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Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Mr. Kite
The problem with using True Market Values is that they are artificially inflated for hybrids by tax credits and various other incentives. If you are going to use True Market Values, you need to at least include the tax credits. MSRP gives a better idea of what they would sell for without all of the incentives.
