Martin,
Didn't GM work with Toyota to produce the Pontiac Vibe clone of the Matrix?

 

GM and Toyota did manage to co-own (or whatever) the CA palnt that made Corollas and Prizms(Nova or whatever).This went on for 20 years or so.It might still be going on-where are Tacomas made?
GM did seem to get the short end of the stick to some degree.Used Prizms(identical except for minor trim elements) sell for $2000 less than an identical Corolla despite haveing the same parts and being assembled by the same USA workers. Union workers??
I had a 94 Tacoma(maybe it wasn't called that yet) imagine my surprise to find a Delco radiator in it.
GM also managed to play ball with Honda a couple of years ago(maybe still doing it)-they traded some small car suitable European GM diesels for Honda's 3.5 V-6 and the 5 speed trans.GM used/uses it in their VUE; it soups the VUE up considerably(7.4 0-60-quick,very quick for that class-in fact one of the quickest SUVs especially if you ignore $80000 Porches).
I do doubt GM would play ball with Toyota on the Hybrids. They sold Ford the earlier technology,not the latest stuff. They were trying to sell Hybrid tech to Nissan, but no go on that either.GM has no reason to buy the HSD from a competitor like Toyota. GM assumes that their mode is better than Toyotas for the vehicles they make $$ on. Having/building a small Hybrid car in the USA wouldn't be any advantage; GM would still be unable to produce them as cheaply as Toyota because of labor costs(and a license fee). It would be pointless from a $$ point of view. Besides, if GMs small diesels can eventually get by EPA regs, they will approach the Hybrids in FE and be an all GM product. Of course, they might have to produce them in an Asian location to drop the price.Euro labor costs are high.
Besides, won't it be easier to scale down GM hybrid system ;Toyota is having problems scaling up their HSD.Their biggest HSD-the HH-is a bit of a disappointment mpg wise.
Oh well. I'm pulling for GM.Luck,Charlie
Bob,I know you have posted links in which Toyota claimed they had already paid off their HSD developement costs, but I don't believe it.They have sold what-about 500,000 HSD cars?Didn't they claim it cost them some HUGE NUMBER LIKE $1 Billion or $10 Billion? If it was a measly $1 Billion that would have meant they made $2000 EXTRA per car(if it is $10 Billion it would be $20,000 per car)?? I doubt they make $1000 on a prius sale! The Prius sells(to dealers) for maybe$3500- $4000 more than a comparable Corolla-I bet that the costs of the just the parts(ignoring developement) is close to $3500. They-Toyota-has to be doing some accounting trickery, or more likely tax savings trickery(they wrote the cost off so they didn't have to pay tax on profit) and that is how they paid off developement costs.
Of course, the Prius is a great car.When I see gas go up instead of being pissed,I smile and congratulate myself on being sooo smart!! That smile is the real Hybrid payback!! Another is that the cost of large vehicles-used-has gone down. A 80,000 mile 1999 Suburban can cost as little as $8000 now-a real bargain as an evac/vacation vehicle, if you occasionally have to haul a big load.(like the current GM commercial).

 

I'm hoping GM will do well too but I wouldn't use "the HH" to write the epitath for the HSD in larger vehicles unless the ratio of non-hybrid to hybrid equivalent comes out wrong:

gas HH - 19/25 (2w Dr)
hy HH - 33/28 (2w Dr)

Once again, the hybrid City mileage is outstanding, better than a 50% improvement over the gas only HH. I find it hard to call this a failure. Heck, that is the city mileage I used to get with my '91 Camry.

Bob Wilson

 

It seems that a lot of companies list extremely inflated development costs for technology that is not in itself really anything new (elecrtic power-split transmissions), other than being adapted specifically to passenger cars. Development costs pushing $10 billion for that is insane, they would have to be paying 6-figure salaries to tens of thousands of workers to rack up that much cost, that would represent a massive portoin of their entire company payroll if true.

 

Hi Mike,

Where did this quote come from?

I recently posted a description of "THE PRIUS THAT SHOOK THE WORLD" - this is a 105 page, PDF book written by Hideshiitazaki and translated by Albert Yamada and Masako Ishikawa. This unpublished book is the history of Prius development." I would recommend it to anyone interested in how engineering projects actually work. It gives an idea about how expensive it can be.

As for the TSD/HSD development, having made the first models, sold in 1997, Toyota has been in manufacturing and refinement mode ever since. Starting from a solid base reduces the cost of modifications and expanding the envelope. Then adding in the 'lessons learned', Toyota can further optimize the costs. It is a whole lot easier to do if you've got half a million units out there whose failures and 'lack of failures' lets you know how the whole system is working.

Bob Wilson

ps. I don't have a paper copy of the book which was published and handed out by Toyota. I found my copy via Google.

 

Bob, yes the $10 Billion is almost certainly BS,but the $1 Billion ($2000 extra per car sold) is pretty plausible especially since they probably get tax advantages from overstating costs.
I don't think the HH is a failure, but the general public sees it as a disappointment. I usually use CRs figures, since they do fairly valid(not sure what they do to correct for temp-maybe nothing) rea city and hy testing for FE.Their figures are city 13 vs 16 ; hy 25 vs 28; trip 22 vs 28. In general a 20% improvement.
We have been spoiled by the Prius.It is city 18 VS 35 in CRs comparison to a 2006 Civic auto.Almost 2X what a very efficient car(same size car, but with less room) gets in city mpg!! The Prius set the mark so high that the HH is seen as a disappointment.
Now HH type numbers-20% real world-will be an unqualified success for GMs behemoths.They-Suburban/Tahoe probably get about 10mpg real world in city driving,and there are a heck of a lot of them used for daily city driving.At 10,000 city miles a 13 mpg Suburban would save over 200 gallons/yr over a 10mpg one.This is about what you save going from a 20mpg to a 40 mpg car.
I'm sure that GM is going to be selling fewer Tahoes/Suburbans in the future, but there is still a sizeable market of folks making $150000/yr that will be immune to $6/gas. GM should be able to continue selling lots of pickups especially if they can combine 20% better economy with a built in generator-like they have now(and like you-Bob- have, but more than 1000 watts).
Toyota makes good vehicles, but they are "beatable";they don't have the deep brand loyality that say-Honda-or GM, or Ford has.I say this as someone who has owned 8 Toyotas(all good vehicles).Folks just don't love Toyota!! They are viewed the same way we would view a Krupp coffee maker-good, but not loveable and eminently replaceable.
I think Toyota knows this,and their move into NASCAR is their way to buy love.A Toyota owner will switch to Honda in a blink, but the opposite won't happen.Honda owners here practically froth at the mouth whenever we point out the obvious-the Prius gets better mpg,and is much faster than the HCH 2!!Prius owners barely let out a peep when the HCH2 folks go on about what a sporting ride their 10.5 second HCH2 is.
Toyota isn't a loved brand.They won't be cut any slack.If GM or Ford matches them in quality/reliability features/price then Toyota will have to rely on brand loyality, and they don't have any deep loyality.Now with their huge labor/pension cost advantage matching them will be a HUGE problem-for now.Many,many Toyota dealers are deeply hated because of the price gouging they have regularily engaged in whenever they had a winner.
We'll see.Luck.Charlie

 

Hi Charlie,
I don't know the actual numbers but as I read what Toyota went through, I started working up the budget numbers and know it was high . . . especially considering Japanese costs. As for trying to figure out what accountants actually do, it is easier to take Toyota at their word that they started making a profit on the Prius in 1992. Even if it was just an operating profit, not really paying off the investment, that is fine. Until recently, Japan had zero percent interest on their loans. The way to pay off an investment is to have a nice long run with a steady return on investment.

I can't argue about what the 'general public sees' since I only know my own mind. I have to use my values and given the improved City and respectable highway performance, I think HSD has done a fine and sucessful job, especially for those who can exploit the City performance . . . small businesses.

The real proof is in the market place and sales rooms. If the HiHy works, it will be sold and not discontinued. If not, it will cease being produced.

Ahhh, the 'missed expectations.' Nothing can be helped about that attitude other than to ask "Where did the expectations come from?" I suspect it was 'sold' to folks, not actually calculated but I could be wrong. The market place will decide.

Regardless of how much I earned, I've always been 'thrifty.' As for my loyalty, it is driven by the specifications and subsequent performance. I can't judge what others use other than to say, emotional driven procurements aren't my path.

I don't relate well to emotional ties to products. It has to do with dealing with engineering issues. No my emotional ties are to and with people, my wife, family and friends. But when it comes to products, to quote Molly Ivans, "its bidness."

One exception is I admire qualiy, team work and discipline in the work place and I abhore the lack of these elements. Until a couple of years ago, ISO-9000 was a good touchstone for quality but the 2000 version copied Enron accounting and ethics.

There are companies I avoid because I know their corporate culture. Fortunately, these companies are in computers, nothing we need discuss here, and a few have gone out of business, which they worked hard to accomplish.

Bob Wilson

 

It is part of the NUMMI joint venture. Remember my statement about having some anecdotal experiences that I cannot talk about? Some of them might involve the Matrix / Vibe. There've been other collaborations, primarily research projects or industry coalitions. I also know people at other companies. It's not hard to understand the "tone" of relationships without discussing confidential issues. I pick up a pretty consistent "tone" from people who deal directly with Toyota on their company's behalf.

Peace,

Martin

 

I figured (it might be) as much....

 

Toyota has had no talks with GM: executive