GM has been in negotiations with Renault/Nissan to get some help to keep from going bankrupt. Toyota sees a problem for them in this merger/deal(whatever it is) and is considering working out a deal with GM. http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds...fx2881542.html

Now, what could Toyota offer GM to keep them from hooking up with Renault/Nissan. This is only speculation on my part, but Toyota could work out a licensing deal on hybrid technology that would help GM where it is weakest(especially with gas prices soaring). GM gets a quicker jump on hybrids and Toyota gets licensing money and maybe heads off a GM deal with Renault/Nissan.

One problem with this idea is what kind of deal did Toyota do with Ford for hybrid technology. Did the Ford deal prevent Toyota from doing a hybrid deal with GM?

Link to the BusinessWeek story:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...aign_id=search

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some Saturns and Chevys get upgraded to HSD! And, of course, a GM-TMC alliance could benefit Toyota as well, since they could start making large trucks with 2-mode.

 

What deal?

Are you refering to the patent sharing? Ford developed their system on their own, no Toyota help. Toyota agreed not to sue for any similarities in their system, something that happens so often it's not even news, from seatbelt designs to brake systems, and that's all that happened there. Just as Ford agrees not to sue Toyota for having a similar minivan braking system, Toyota agrees not to sue Ford for using a similar hybrid system.

 

It is a little more than just fending off lawsuits. Ford not only licensed the computer control technology from Toyota, they get many of the main parts from 1 of Toyota's main hybrid suppliers. http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsst...4209/story.htm

 

I'm a little cynical but if Toyota bought a 'stake' in GM, they could stop building plants in the USA by claiming the GM plants are their 'balance of trade' answer. Compared to dealing with the local politicians everytime Toyota puts in a plant, it would considerably simplfy their USA operations. But Occum's Razor offers a simpler explanation.

We are hearing GM management reacting to the sound of their "pink slip" being written. They are looking for a way out and they are finding their options limited. IMHO, this is FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) being tossed out . . . the fear that Toyota will take them over. I give it no credibility.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...archived=False
Bob Wilson

 

Uhhhhh. No.

Toyota and GM worked together on hybrids for quite some time and mutually agreed to let the co-development lapse. The 2-Mode system that will launch in about a year is far better suited for the types of vehicles and duty cycles that GM is focused on. Even if what you are suggesting were being seriously considered, keep this in mind........

From the time a firm decision is made to put a hybrid system in a vehicle to the time that you see the vehicle on the street could be 24 - 30 months. If that decision were made today, you'd be into 2008 or 2009 before you'd see anything. The 2-Mode applications will be in full swing by then.

Peace,

Martin

 

Actually, there's a lot more to this than you think. Ford did deal with Toyota and purchases the hardware for the FEH from Aisin, one of Toyota's most closely held keiretsus. Ford still needed to put a lot of engineering and integration work into making the system work with the Escape (kind of the point I was making in my earlier response to TKCamry's post).

Toyota intentionally pre-empted Ford's announcement of the FEH by going public and saying that they had sourced their technology to Ford. Ford was p.o'd by the upstage and demanded a retraction from Toyota. When that didn't happen, they sued. I do not recall how it was resolved, or if it ever was. If I recall correctly, the "patent sharing" statement was sort of a compromise. I believe Toyota did this to gain leverage to sell the Aisin system to other automakers. From what I could tell, it backfired, since most of the companies Toyota has been courting have either stayed non-committal or have opted for the GM 2-Mode system. Part of that is because of technical merit of the 2-Mode. Part of it is because GM is involving other companies in co-development of the latest technology, as opposed to selling them the 2nd best system. Part of it is that the industry as a whole did not appreciate the way Toyota intentionally upstaged Ford. Stories abound in the industry about how diffifcult it is to work with Toyota as an equal partner. Most companies would rather not if they have another viable option.

Consider most of this OPINION, but understand that I have 1st and 2nd hand anecdotal evidence of a lot of this. For confidentiality reasons I obviously cannot go into detail.

Peace,

Martin

 

Hi Martin,
In this, we agree. There is a cultural chasm that makes it difficult, nearly impossible, for other corporations to collaborate with Toyota because it won't be a meeting of equals.

Toyota will have at least a decade of experience with hybrid fleets of 10**4 from 1997 to more than 10**5 private vehicles today when the GM 2-stage hybrid finally reaches the hands of private owners. The 10**2 units of GM hybrids operated by bus companies pales compared to Toyota's base of privately owned hybrids running on all continents and climates. This base of 'lessons learned' gives Toyota, a well earned, leg up.

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson

 

You missed at least PART of my point. Other automakers do not like collaborating with Toyota about ANYTHING!!! This predates the industry fascination with hybrids. I only used the Ford situation as an example. There are many more non-hybrid examples.

I think it is an issue of corporate culture, not societal culture. Nissan seems to get along just fine with Renault. GM has an excellent relationship with Honda. GM also has very good relationships with Suzuki and to a lesser degree with Subaru. I doubt you'd find any major automotive company that would publicly state that they prefer to work with Toyota on anything.

Now, at the end of the day, that may mean absolutely nothing. Toyota does just fine as an empire onto itself. They have massive cash reserves and spend a lot on R&D, so they can pretty much plot their path independently. On the other hand, if there is ever coalition building required to drive consensus to an industry standard (on anything, not just hybrids), Toyota may have difficulty building coalitions if a credible alternative standard exists. That's part of the GM approach to the 2-Mode. Companies that are considering a hybrid product look at both systems. It's interesting to see how they are lining up.

Peace,

Martin

 

Of course a big part of the hybrid equation is having access to a ready supply of good batteries.

Martin, any word on whether GM managed to get anything from Fuji Heavy regarding their long-lasting Lithium-ion batteries before Toyota steamed in?