How does that make the first half of the tank last longer than the second? I understand that when the gauge reads empty there is still fuel in the tank, but the halfway mark on the gauge is still halfway between there and full, so unless the gauge is non-linear, the rate at which it drops is only a function of how fast you are consuming it...

Since the pump is always pulling from the bottom, won't it get the same amount of dregs regardless of how much fuel is in the tank?

FWIW, I've been driving Hondas for 20 years, I took them all over 100k miles, I almost never filled up before the fuel light came on, and I never had to replace a fuel pump.

 

Hi NASAngineer:

___Those surface streets are where your highest FE is going to come from in the future. Just trust me on this Or you can read the Ford Hybrid Experience article for more detail …

___Slajuene, you have only read about the HCH-I’s LS P&G in the “Tbaleno takes the Glove’s Off” thread, not HS P&G. LS P&G is a city/suburban type P&G technique, not a highway one in the least! Did you notice the 100 - 120 mpg capability vs. the 70, 80, or 90 mpg capability that I believe the HCH is worth at higher speeds? They are different. HS P&G does not have any real rate and range because you are traveling at highway speeds in and amongst traffic more then likely. What you want to attempt is D-FAS’ in heavy and as you fall back, decide again where to being the pulse. Above 65 and HS P&G really falls apart quickly. I will pulse to that high a speed only if it will allow me a higher speed over a crest, a minimum speed over a crest or the next crest, or there is an opportunity for a D-FAS. On the flats, only for a D-FAS but it better be a good one or it’s a waste from 65 on up … Other then those 2 scenario’s, a lower speed peak is always better then a higher one. On the bottom end, you have to decide if you can take her down to the highways minimum or some other higher speed traffic conditions depending. If traffic is too congested for a tighter band HS P&G (5 - 7 mph delta possibly?) you are more then likely in a straight close or distant draft condition anyway and you may as well grab those two instead.

___If anyone has been involved in a hybrid forum for any period of time, you will eventually run into those stories by unknowing reporters, skeptic’s, and DIE hard whoever’s that will post misleading information about a hybrid’s FE at best and out and out lie about a hybrid’s FE at their worst. If you drive like Joe Schmoe and receive 45 mpg’s or less, you will be giving ammunition to those that haven’t a clue. I get approached all the time at work with this battle and all I can say is I received 92 + in my old one, I receive 60 - 70% greater then the EPA combined in my current rides, the average of over 250 + HCH owners matches the EPA combined and the average of ~ 400 Prius II owners is about 87% of the EPA combined.

___Finally and to those that do not know me, I am not about to give up an ounce of fuel in my own vehicles and I will do my ****dest to teach any or all of you to push tanks to receive phenomenal FE in yours. It is the right thing to do for our country, our environment, and it can make a rather boring daily grind a challenge that I can only hope many will come to enjoy rather then detest! Do not get me wrong, I detest sitting in a traffic nightmare as much as the next guy but at the end of the day when you pull into the garage and you see 64.3 mpg in your brand new HCH-II’s display for the first time, you will thank everyone here that pushed, taught, begged, pleaded, and coerced you into becoming an even better hypermiler then you thought possible. I wish it was warmer so we could see that instant results I am looking for but believe me, there are some very neat tricks unique to the HCH-II that will allow some very serious FE that many here just do not believe is possible. Once that first hypermiler punches out a tank of 70 + and describes his methods with good enough detail for others to follow, it should wake you all up to say by god if he can do it in his lousy traffic conditions and on his lousy fuel, I should be able to duplicate it at least some of the time in mine. BlueCivicHybrid has already shown us what is in store with some of his at speed gauge cluster pics in the share and NASAngineer has given us excellent detail on the tools available form his perspective. Adam_Hybridcivic just tonight posted a real world result of a 2 mile long EV mode in both directions in his brand new 06 HCH-II. This was in Maryland in December no less! Keep piling up the real world beyond expectation experiences and I am sure you can see where these 70, 80, and even a one off 90 + mpg tank is going to come from.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Hi Bluecivichybrid:
___Starting and stopping your Hybrid’s ICE anytime is harsher then a non-hybrid but you allow AS? The Prius II and FEH drop into and out of ICE-Off on a continual basis when around town. This design allows for not extremely high around town FE but for a given total miles traveled, the ICE has lesser wear in some regards because it isn’t spinning at all! As for the cold, the number one reason for ICE-On during cold ops is to get the CAT up to light off temp. This is the ICE designer’s number one law they are told to not violate. Number two is a minimum and maximum SoC for a given pack design. Because you are ICE-Off during a FAS’, you are simply delaying light off but you are doing so while using no fuel with no emissions in your Glide. There is the possibility of a NOx spike on cold ICE re-ignition but those you have to live with no matter what car you drive.

___Do you think I ripped out the seats, removed the spare tire, and OEM stereo gear in this 3,200 # mid-sized semi-lux sedan when I achieved the following in a non-hybrid Accord just 2 months ago?



___Do you think I drive impractically on a daily basis. My overall average speed is in the high 50’s low 60’s on a daily basis unless I hit the usual Chicago traffic nightmare. You use the tools as they appear. If a LS P&G condition arrives, you use it in the traffic tie ups. If a HS P&G scenario reveals itself, you use that. If traffic is bumper to bumper at 60 + mph, you are in a Close in draft and you had better take the ride for all its worth. If there is a stale green light up ahead, why would you consider racing up to it when you know its going to turn red very soon?

___Instead of trying to figure out what is best for you, why don’t you read back and find out how I turn my car around in my drive in a FAS starting from at least ½ mile away as I am entering into my subdivision. If you are unwilling to FAS up and into your nightly parking spot, at least turn her around and back in while she is warmed up instead of backing out when she is dead cold. You are missing the pieces for a perfect tank. This is not Fred Flintstone but if you want to back out of your spot, you are burning fuel needlessly. What more needs to be said? Would it be safer for your mother to drive the HCH-I or II out of the drive face out or to back down your drive and enter the street backwards? This is a really easy one …

___Is your HCH-II more comfortable then an AH or my EX-L w/ NAVI? Do you really think a hybrid with AS and EV mode capabilities has better longevity then that of the non-hybrid Civic? Is the movement of your accelerator pedal a few mm every ½ mile to enter into a HS Glide while out on the highway that much of an inconvenience for an extra 20 - 40 mpg’s? I do not expect everyone to grab all the FE they can but when a particular set of circumstances arises that allow a particular technique to be used, why not? Having your mom run every technique in the book is beyond her skill or capability but yours? You have the car, you have the experience, and the ability to knock out some exceptional segments. Just tie it all together from parking lot to garage and show the rest of the world that you drive a hybrid for its exceptional capabilities and here are the results, and not just because it receives less then what a 20 year old Honda CRX HF does.

___Yes, CarTalk again … You want to know what happens if all that gunk isn’t flushed into your system on a slow and continuous basis over the life of the vehicle but instead it happens all at once when it breaks loose after 100,000 miles of stuff getting pumped into it? A very expensive repair is in order. What do you think a fuel filter is for. A one time crud burst or a small continuous input? Most anyone that follows cars knows about Fuel pumps getting cooled by Fuel. Did you know that the fuel inside the tank of someone residing in the Phoenix area in the dead of summer is as hot as ambient or in the 110 – 120 degree F range? Do you see more fuel pump failures from those residing in the desert SW vs. those residing in Canada as an example? No, because those pumps can take a lot more pump heat then a low fuel condition would allow before they would ever give out. I have been driving around until my tanks have been for all intents and purposes practically dry for more years then you have been alive and have never lost a fuel pump. About 800,000 miles worth now if that helps

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Start/stop operations on a cold engine wear the ICE much more than start/stop operations when it is up to warm temperatures, as in Autostop. I'm talking about the temperatures here.

No, I don't think you ripped out anything.

I do the same things you do except I go into ev-mode instead of P&G. I do not speed up to stale green lights. I know how about long each green light lasts for every intersection in my drive and I know when it's a good time to just back off and start regen, even when it's still green. These are practical. Not so for FAS to every stoplight and stop sign in the morning.

I read your blurb. I live on a hill. There is no way I can FAS into my driveway. I would stop and roll backwards before my front tires touched my garage floor. Driving backwards up my steep driveway and aiming for the right side of my garage is a pain, especially when i must keep the edge of my side mirror 2-3" from my garage wall to make space for both cars. Vision is limited, as the rear window will be pointed to the sky and I won't be able to see where I'm reversing very clearly. So the easy answer is for both my mother and I to drive forwards into the garage, and reverse out of it in the morning.

I was referring to your suggestion to FAS during warmup. not EV-glide on the highway. I don't need to prove it to the world that hybrids get exceptional mileage. You do already.

You're saying that fuel pumps don't fail when running tanks to empty. It doesn't matter how many years you were alive or how many miles you've driven. It only takes 1 fuel tank failure (i.e. my friend's Camry) to prove that running tanks to empty can overheat and damage them. That is why inductive reasoning works.

I don't think this dialogue is helpful to anybody else or productive anymore, so let's end it.

 

Hi Bluecivichybrid:

___You are talking about Start/Stop a few times. Because you have never done it, you will find how much easier she spins up after that first start on each consecutive. The oil coat is there after that first start in each case and the lube oil temps come up a lot faster then the coolant does.

___As for FAS to each and every stop light in the morning, that is the difference between 25 mpg’s and 50 +. No way around it. You can either do 45 seconds worth of work (what work considering you are moving a shifter one notch twice and turning a key 3 times while sitting down behind the wheel) for 50 + mpg’s or you do nothing for 25 mpg’s or less!

___As for your hill and parking, do another pulse to get you up and into the garage. There is no sense fighting this. You either want the FE or you don’t? As for parking, if you have to be that careful pulling in, why are you not so careful pulling out backwards? You have a two car garage and you can turn a car around in a two car garage’s drive most of the time. Turn the **** thing around in your drive when it’s warmed up for higher FE instead of that backwards non-sense when it’s cold. Imagine the FAS you could receive down the drive and down the block without ever starting your ICE if your driveway is as steep as you described. I should take some pics of the west way out of my drive and sub. In the summer, I get a free 1/3 mile because of the slope and all when heading that direction without ever doing anything other then turning the key to IG-II to get the odometer to spin. It really sounds like you are giving up an excellent start for the inconvenience of backing out of your drive for some reason? The whole thing sounds painful to me and if it were my garage, I would figure something out yesterday instead of living with a poor situation at best …

___Fuel pumps do not fail when you run the tank low. The Ranger, Accord, Insight, S-10, Previa, Sable, have all been there. Filling up on ¼ tank or more is wasting even more fuel by having to pull into the gas station that many more times! Of the 2 or 3 minutes it costs every morning/evening and you enjoy that 5 + minutes to fill. Think of that one less trip to the station every 4 to 6 weeks. That is a real time saver if you are in fact concerned about time management! 1 Camry fuel pump does not mean squat and if you can say with absolute certainty that it was due to running down tank levels vs. heat, junk, or mechanical problem to begin with, you have more prescient capabilities then I do. I have run my tanks to almost dry for 20 + years and in automobiles with far more miles then the 80K on that Camry let alone being supposedly far less reliable.

___Now back to another FE saver possibly. CGameProgrammer has had a little experience with S for a no-assist acceleration with OK results as far as seeing no-assist. I asked him in that thread about bringing her up in the 1,200 - 1,500 RPM range. I hope he will give us an answer tomorrow.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

I tried this again and the ICE will indeed stay off after switching back to IG-II, but only if I keep it in IG-I for at least 2-3 seconds.

 

i will add that my mother is not careful when opening her driver door. this is the reason why i park on the right side of the garage, front first. And also why I pad the left side of the garage with foam near where she opens her door.

If I parked backwards in, I would then have to park on the left side of the garage, in order to be able to open my driver's door enough to get out. This would mean that she would have to park backwards on the right side, so she won't ding the 06 hch when she opens her door. she can't park for beans front first already, so thats not a good idea.

what i am saying here is that parking backwards does not work for me. alright? I know my garage and driveway better than you do, so that's that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm willing to give your FAS warm up thing a try tomorrow. I have 1 stop sign and 3 stoplights before I hit the highway. Usually they're green. There is a certain part right at the beginning of the highway which I attain 48.0 mpg without FAS. This is nothing close to 25 mpg. I'll give your FAS a try and see how much higher than 48.0 mpg I can get at that point.

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on the S thing - i'm looking into it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

thanks NASA for clearing up the FAS on the HCH-II

 

Xcel, I appreciate many of your tips, but you make it sound like backing into a garage is just as easy as backing out. For many of us that have two vehicles tightly packed into a garage, along with bikes, tools, etc..., it is far easier to pull into the garage going forward and then back straight out into a large open alley, then to back into the tight space of a garage.

 

Hi All,

let's just get back on track. What we need is a simplified guide for newcommers. Period. People will be getting their hybrids in January and it would be nice to have a nice summary.

Wayne, I do understand your obsession with squeezing every ounce of performance / FE out of your car, just understand that not everybody shares that obsession. Period. End of story.

On a side note, this morning, I did a reset on trip B after the car was warmed up and got 5.8l/km (or roughly 40MPG). It was cold (-1F). This is all city driving. I will do some more testing tonight and tomorrow morning. Basically, I simply accelerated with about 3 bars of assist and tried to glide as much as possible (as did NASAngineer). Keep it simple, they say.

Thanks,
Stephane.