Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
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Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technique summary thread ...
Hi
I totally agree with this. Further more, the 5 mintues to reach 50km I was refering to is not warm up time, it's actually slowly coming off of a stop and reaching 50km, i.e. from a complete stop to a sustained 50km.
Don't get me wrong, I do apprieciate people that push the envolpe, we just don't all share the same obsessions
Furthermore, some of the stuff I would never do because *I* wouldn't feel safe doing them:
- turning off the car (from the II position to the I position) while rolling
- over inflating the tires (especially during winter time)
What I want to try tomorrow on my ride to work, using the 'S' position. As per the manual, this lowers the transmission ratios and is, apperently, suitable for stop and go traffic.
Thanks,
Stephane.
Originally Posted by NASAgineer
Well, you're only doubling the FE for those 2-3 minute segments. For someone with a 30 minute commute each way, you're only talking about 55 mpg vs. 52 mpg for the trip each way.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
Don't get me wrong, I do apprieciate people that push the envolpe, we just don't all share the same obsessions
Furthermore, some of the stuff I would never do because *I* wouldn't feel safe doing them:
- turning off the car (from the II position to the I position) while rolling
- over inflating the tires (especially during winter time)
What I want to try tomorrow on my ride to work, using the 'S' position. As per the manual, this lowers the transmission ratios and is, apperently, suitable for stop and go traffic.
Thanks,
Stephane.
Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
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Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker
Boy is this (One-Hot Thread) I think this is going to be my only "Comment" 
.Terry
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From: Northern Illinois
Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Hi NASAgineer:
___As for the hills, I was climbing 500 - 1,000 footers traveling cross country through NY and MA in the Insight this spring with excellent results on her final drive. 40 - 60 mpg’s up and infinite coming down gave me 80 - 120 during the climb/descents overall. I was traveling in the truck climbing lanes at well below the speed limits however … The Ranger? Climbing the hills and mountains of TN and KY on my trip to Florida in her last spring gave me the highest FE she has ever seen!
___Then there was the Rental through the desert SW as well as up and into the San Francisco area? I do not know if you drive the same roads as we did but downtown sucked. The outskirts were not that bad imho?
Can’t Wait. Other Options!
___In a FAS, you shift to N first and then Key to IG-I for shut down. Wait a second or two and move the Key to IG-II for the reboot. IG-III for restart once the low speed target has been hit for restart, rev match and shift into D.
___I am not talking about 2 -3 minutes, I am talking about an extra 2 or 3 minutes on top of the 4 or 5 before she is fully warmed up. 25 mpg vs. 50 mpg no matter how few minutes is the difference between a Toyota Camry and an HCH-II during that time frame. What did I describe, 3 or 4 FAS’ with 4 or 5 P&G’s over 5 - 7 minutes during warm up? You know how long a FAS takes to perform? About 5 seconds in total. A P&G, maybe 7 seconds in total for each cycle. How lazy can we get for a paltry 25 mpg doing nothing vs. 50 mpg in the HCH-II when warming up with maybe 45 seconds worth of work? I can bet it takes the average driver 30 seconds to dial out on their cel phone while driving (I do not carry one myself) but I do not see many posts here *****ing that that is to much work?
___ElanC
___This has nothing to do with authority but when someone is posting about accelerating at 5 bars of assist and running a P&G to 65 mph, there had better be some qualification because neither of these are the smart thing to do in most instances. As you and I have gone head to head here in the past, I would be glad to do the same again although hopefully via E-Mail if you would prefer. You know who you were posting about and I do not think anyone needs another hint as to your intent?
Slajenune,
___Why would you assume it would takes 5 minutes to get to 50 km/h and where did you hear that? Whoever told you this doesn’t know much about cars and or trucks let alone the poor FE you would receive in doing so. There is a lower limit in terms of acceleration for maximum FE as well.
___About turning the key to IG-I from II, that is your personal demon. How you would ever use the ICE in an IMA start when pulling into a parking spot or drive is beyond me. It takes ~ .5 - 1 second to get her spun up for useful acceleration after an AS. A non-hybrid whose ICE is always running is far safer then a hybrid in your scenario but you may not have thought about that? Over inflating tires at any time of year is the right thing to do but that is just my opinion.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___As for the hills, I was climbing 500 - 1,000 footers traveling cross country through NY and MA in the Insight this spring with excellent results on her final drive. 40 - 60 mpg’s up and infinite coming down gave me 80 - 120 during the climb/descents overall. I was traveling in the truck climbing lanes at well below the speed limits however … The Ranger? Climbing the hills and mountains of TN and KY on my trip to Florida in her last spring gave me the highest FE she has ever seen!
___Then there was the Rental through the desert SW as well as up and into the San Francisco area? I do not know if you drive the same roads as we did but downtown sucked. The outskirts were not that bad imho?
Can’t Wait. Other Options!
___In a FAS, you shift to N first and then Key to IG-I for shut down. Wait a second or two and move the Key to IG-II for the reboot. IG-III for restart once the low speed target has been hit for restart, rev match and shift into D.
Originally Posted by NASAgineer
Well, you're only doubling the FE for those 2-3 minute segments. For someone with a 30 minute commute each way, you're only talking about 55 mpg vs. 52 mpg for the trip each way.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
___ElanC
Originally Posted by ElanC
Coming from a different kind of forum where I've gained some respect, it amazes me how easily people are intimidated by any criticism from a "senior" member, whether intended or not. They act as if others have some real authority over them, when in fact everyone is pretty much untouchable.
Slajenune,
Originally Posted by slajeune
Further more, the 5 mintues to reach 50km I was refering to is not warm up time, it's actually slowly coming off of a stop and reaching 50km, i.e. from a complete stop to a sustained 50km.
___About turning the key to IG-I from II, that is your personal demon. How you would ever use the ICE in an IMA start when pulling into a parking spot or drive is beyond me. It takes ~ .5 - 1 second to get her spun up for useful acceleration after an AS. A non-hybrid whose ICE is always running is far safer then a hybrid in your scenario but you may not have thought about that? Over inflating tires at any time of year is the right thing to do but that is just my opinion.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Last edited by xcel; Dec 13, 2005 at 05:39 PM.
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Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technique summary thread ...
Originally Posted by NASAgineer
Well, you're only doubling the FE for those 2-3 minute segments. For someone with a 30 minute commute each way, you're only talking about 55 mpg vs. 52 mpg for the trip each way.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
For longer commutes, it's even less. For some people, it's not worth it to go through all those key on/off gyrations just to get 3 mpg better.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: San Jose, CA
Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Originally Posted by xcel
___I am not talking about 2 -3 minutes, I am talking about an extra 2 or 3 minutes on top of the 4 or 5 before she is fully warmed up. 25 mpg vs. 50 mpg no matter how few minutes is the difference between a Toyota Camry and an HCH-II during that time frame. What did I describe, 3 or 4 FAS’ with 4 or 5 P&G’s over 5 - 7 minutes during warm up? You know how long a FAS takes to perform? About 5 seconds in total. A P&G, maybe 7 seconds in total for each cycle. How lazy are can we get for a paltry 25 mpg doing nothing vs. 50 mpg in the HCH-II when warming up with maybe 45 seconds worth of work? I can bet it takes the average driver 30 seconds to dial out on their cel phone while driving (I do not carry one myself) but I do not see many posts here *****ing that that is to much work?
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Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Hi NASAgineer:
___As I said earlier, if 25 - 30 mpg or less is satisfactory, that is your option no matter the distance you drive. You asked for a way to get up to speed without hammering your FE and I gave it to you. If you prefer not to use some or all of the nuances, that is your option as well. To each his own but the fact that the HCH-II is worth far more then this with less time invested then it takes to comb your hair or make that Cel call is vexing to say the least. You yourself have said you lost 10 mpg from warm up and acceleration to highways speed vs. a reset Trip A while at highway speed on your own commute. That is a lot more then just 2 - 3 mpg’s.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___As I said earlier, if 25 - 30 mpg or less is satisfactory, that is your option no matter the distance you drive. You asked for a way to get up to speed without hammering your FE and I gave it to you. If you prefer not to use some or all of the nuances, that is your option as well. To each his own but the fact that the HCH-II is worth far more then this with less time invested then it takes to comb your hair or make that Cel call is vexing to say the least. You yourself have said you lost 10 mpg from warm up and acceleration to highways speed vs. a reset Trip A while at highway speed on your own commute. That is a lot more then just 2 - 3 mpg’s.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 330
From: San Jose, CA
Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Originally Posted by xcel
___As I said earlier, if 25 - 30 mpg or less is satisfactory, that is your option no matter the distance you drive. You asked for a way to get up to speed without hammering your FE and I gave it to you.
In any case, I was just responding to your assertion for the benefit of others reading this thread. I can imagine that many people might read your statement that "2 - 3 minutes for double the FE" and get too excited
You yourself have said you lost 10 mpg from warm up and acceleration to highways speed vs. a reset Trip A while at highway speed on your own commute. That is a lot more then just 2 - 3 mpg’s.
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Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Hi Wayne,
I have read your post about P&G and the 'sweet spot' seemed to have been 23mph - 43mph. However, in most states, these would not be legal highway speeds. As I said before, I don't hold the truth, I simply try to summarize information. If you have a better range for pulse and glide on a highway, by all means, give the information and the thread will be updated.
I the big scheme of thing, we will ALL benefit from this, from everyday joe-schmoe driver to hypermiller.
Thanks,
Stephane.
Originally Posted by xcel
___ElanC___This has nothing to do with authority but when someone is posting about accelerating at 5 bars of assist and running a P&G to 65 mph, there had better be some qualification because neither of these are the smart thing to do in most instances. As you and I have gone head to head here in the past, I would be glad to do the same again although hopefully via E-Mail if you would prefer. You know who you were posting about and I do not think anyone needs another hint as to your intent?
I the big scheme of thing, we will ALL benefit from this, from everyday joe-schmoe driver to hypermiller.
Thanks,
Stephane.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 387
From: Northern California
Re: Civic hybrid 06 driving technic summary thread
Originally Posted by xcel
Let us get into what you are going to have to do to bring your HCH-II up to higher speeds without your FE getting killed on the way. Your HCH-II has to be facing out of your drive or parking spot from dead cold. I do not care if you have to pull it in the night before and turn it around by pushing it Fred Flintstone style, you must get that nose facing out and ready for the next days ordeal. If you have to use reverse at any time, you are not paying close enough attention to the parking lots or spots available for you to park. Again, if that ICE is running, you had better consider moving forward or all you are doing is wasting gas. A cold ICE means extremely rich mixtures, Open Loop ops, backed off timing, and high RPM’s. All 4 are a recipe for a FE DISASTER at best! Ok, you know about Face Out. If you have a down slope on your drive or roadway, why is your car idling to pull you out into your street? Just boot it up (not started) and coast into the street. You did pay attention that all was clear before you booted up and began moving, right? You start your car and you are instantly moving forward. No ifs, ands, or buts. If something gets in your way, you shut the car down. Even if you think something will be in the way by the time you get there, you shut it down now and if the obstacle clears, good. If it doesn’t, you saved fuel on your way to a warmed up ICE highway cruise. Now you are in the street heading towards the first stop sign. Let that backed off advance, open looped ops, high RPM, and rich mixture accelerate your HCH-II all on its own. You should not have to touch the pedal much at all. If you are going to be burning fuel like there is an ocean of it, you may as well be getting some distance from it. About that first stop sign down the block … You shut the car off and coast into it. That high revving, abysmal FE receiving ICE is not doing anything but warming up the CAT’s and coolant on your dime. Screw that. Shut the thing down and FAS into that stop sign down the block. Unless its 0 degrees F and you just started her up, you have to consider a FAS anytime you are running around town or around your subdivision if she is not warmed up. So you are sitting at that first stop sign and all looks clear in both directions … Restart and perform the same into the next light, sign, obstacle, or whatever. You should now be close to LS P&G territory although your hybrid’s automatic tools may or may not work just yet. Time for our first forced LS P&G via FAS when we hit the first non-suburban arterial street. Take her up to 30 mph and FAS back down to 20 mph. From that 20 mph, pulse her back up to 35 mph. Glide in a FAS back down to 25 mph. The next pulse takes you up to 40 - 45 mph and you FAS again back down to 30 mph. We should by now see the temp gauge just beginning to pull off the bottom. We need about another mile or so of either LS P&G using FAS’ or a slow but steady cruise using DWL until she is fully warmed up. At least she is not running open loop, not running with a backed off advance, her idle has slowed somewhat although she still may be running a little rich. Just a few more blocks and you are ready for highway travel … This is just one way to get that cold ICE up to temp without getting killed. I hope you guys can find even more in your own daily grinds.
Yes, I agree that this method will yield much higher mpgs when warming up the car, and this will boost overall trip mileage, launching us from the 50s to 60 mpg even. If I was only concerned about fuel efficiency, I'd do this and even rip all excess weight (stereos, speakers, spare tires, upholstery, seats, plastic trim). I'd drive as slow as I want to get the most mpg possible.
But these methods cross my cost-benefit line. I want this car to last, and I want to be comfortable in it. I also want to drive it with practicality in mind, not hypermiling. Pragmaticism is the reason why my family acquired hybrids, not fuel efficiency (to the max).
Pushing my car up my driveway backwards into my garage is also highly impractical and dangerous. Not only is my garage narrow enough to fit two Civic Hybrids, it's also very steep, and I'd have to stop my car in the middle of the road to do this. I live just over the crest of a hill, and cars come barreling down at 35 mph unaware of anything. Sorry, I'm not Fred Flintstone.
Your methods are valid in that they do boost mpg, but I am not willing to pay the costs in comfort, practicality, and engine life.
And about the fuel pumps and running tanks dry or close to empty:
Modern cars have fuel pumps that are submerged inside their gas tanks. And since the gasoline acts as their lubricant and coolant, you damage the fuel pump if you run the tank dry due to it overheating. So car manufacturers make sure that even when the gauge reads empty, you still have a little gas left. That's also why the first half of the tank appears to last longer than the second half of the tank. It's because you never actually USE all of the second half of the tank. When the needle gets to empty, there's still gasoline in there. And, as we just explained, it's there for a good reason. - Cartalk.com question
What the average person isn't aware of, but most experienced mechanics should know, is that the electronic fuel pump is cooled by the gasoline in the tank. When not at all submerged in gasoline to cool it, the electronic fuel pump runs a decent risk of overheating, and therefore, failing. Keep driving around with no gas in your tank, and you will find out first hand. It is a good idea to keep at least half a tank of gas in your car at all times, not JUST for this reason, but also because the dregs settle to the bottom, and when the fuel pump is suckin the last bits of gas it has the most chance of suckin up the dregs too. - Edmunds.com Town Hall
My friend's father also has a Toyota Camry at 150k, where he had to replace the fuel pump at 80k because he regularly ran his tank down to when the fuel light came on. My friend is not making the same mistake, filling up at half-tank on his 98 Accord with 120k already. And he knows cars much better than I do, especially Hondas.
