Hi Ole_don:

___Welcome to GH!

1. As for ICE-Off ops, have you ever driven in an Insight when it Autostops? Similar dangers apply … So some of us will take it up to 75 mph, not just 19 as the Insight is limited too Vacuum assist does not disappear immediately as you have 3 to 5 uses normally. You will know when its time and/or you will have your hand on the E-Brake at low speeds. Steering at speed is not a problem imho. In the Insight, I actually pulled the Electric Assist fuse since it was way to light a feel anyway. I have a slight problem with the ¾ Ton 4x4’s at work in a FAS but I do not FAS those like the Accord and Ranger. Both of which are far more manageable.

2. You have made many assumptions and they are incorrect …

___AZCivic, any news?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Item 1. Coasting is manageable but risky with the engine off on non-hybrids.

Item 2. I am fairly sure I am correct, but if you know better, I would like to be corrected. The portion of engine power to increase vehicle speed is entirely saved and usable as increased vehicle kinetic energy. The increased kinetic energy shows up as larger MPG values (on uncompensated meters) as you later coast back to the original speed, and do not use as much fuel to do so. I have built MPG meters that compensate. An uncompensated meter just sees larger fuel consumption and registers lower MPG during acceleration. It can be misleading.

Shell Oil used to have MPG competitions. The common practice was to shave the tread off the tires and inflate them to 100 psi or so. Then accelerate at max throttle to a high speed, then shut off the engine and coast to the low speed and restart. The idea was to decrease rolling resistance, and use the engine, which is after all a heat engine, at an efficient power, and then shut it off. It produced MPG like those you get on P&G. If light throttle operation were efficient, then P&G would not make higher MPG values.

 

Hi All:

___Sorry for the OT post …

Ole_don:

___Item 1. Driving is risky behavior. Some of us attempt to double the EPA when doing so and this is one method of many to achieve that goal … Once you learn about an IMA’s Autostop, a FAS (in the Honda’s and all non-hybrid’s) and a Glide in the Ford and Toyota hybrids is just the next level.

___Item 2. You have never driven in a competitive high FE mode lately or continuously then? Go grab an Insight 5-speed and take off in a 0 - 50 time of 45 + seconds. Lean burn from third gear on and without assist all the way up. Your FE will be higher then those barreling away. The highest I have seen was 100 + mpg in < 1.2 miles from cold IIRC. A warm day but dead cold from the parking lot at work after an 8 hour hiatus … After you reach 50, drop back down to ~ 28 - 30 mph in fifth gear at ~ 1,100 RPM. Just hold your cruise speed there and you will find out just how inefficient the Insight’s ICE is at the supposedly least efficient intake opening while barely above idle. It must be hell on that little 1.0 L ICE to suck in that charge but you will change your story once you see what happens on the Instantaneous with your very own eyes! Take an HCH or Prius II and run WOT to speed and Glide/Coast. Your FE will be much lower then a properly performed pulse. Look up the “Tbaleno takes the gloves off” thread for our own experimentation. Much over 2,500 RPM and you lost FE over the cycle. Much below and you did as well … I believe the most efficient acceleration rates may be following the torque curve at lower RPM’s in today’s automobiles but even that doesn’t match up with what we found in Tom’s CVT based HCH-I. I routinely receive > 100 mpg driving back from the Shell gas station at far below WOT (always < 2,000 RPM during any pulse) in a low speed P&G in the non-hybrid semi-lux Accord. That station is ~ 1.5 miles away and 20 - 30’ below my homes elevation if that helps … Let me know if you want a pic the next time I fill up

___Do you remember seeing any of those Shell Eco racers hitting double City EPA in whatever they drove back then as in back and forth to work over 20,000 + miles? Now you should be seeing the big picture although I would have loved to drive one of those SAAB’s w/ the Freewheeling handle/mode? It was a SAAB that came with that feature, correct? Those early pioneers were the inspiration of many a hypermiler today and we have simply built upon what they discovered way back when is all …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Wayne's description on the topic of fuel economy during accelleration matches up with my experience as well. In shorter form, one could say that if you accellerate slowly by means of using very light throttle and letting the engine increase to high RPM, you are hurting your FE. If you accellerate slowly by means of reasonable throttle pressure BUT getting the engine to upshift to the highest gear that still delivers reasonable accelleration, that should produce the best FE.

As for me and getting my SG reflashed, I totally spaced out yesterday and forgot to make an appointment to drop off my scangauge to be reflashed. I'll send myself a reminder note that should pop up when I get home from work tonight. With any luck I'll have a reflashed unit by this weekend.

 

Item 1 We are getting closer. In my working life I was in charge of a vehicle product line, and taking risk is not the way to get customers or help them grow old. Having fun at your own risk is another thing entirely.

Item 2. Of course the Shell competitions, which I collected as a boy, were wildly guesswork in the 40s and 50s. Engines generally are most efficient at someplace like half speed. I note that very light throttle you agree is not the best way to accelerate. But WOT (wide open throttle) is not bad over the efficient engine speed range.

I have seen lots of comments by hybrid owners in these pages about accelerating with a very light throttle, and that is exactly the erroneous impression the normal uncompensated MPG meter gives. It SHOULD be telling you to Pulse, guiding you to great MPG.

I do want to say that you are my hero, the guy who says "Inflate those tires!" and I want to stay on the right side of you. But I gotta say what I think I know to be so.

 

Hi Ole_don:

___To me, risk is driving well above 70 mph. Unfortunately, I see this every single day I am out on the highway. Me? Only if I really really need to: A Hypermiling Angel guiding my way ... Even then, it is far beyond my normal risk level and is actually quite scary imho I find a D-FAS in heavy traffic at slower speeds (or at least slowing) to be far less risky actually but that is just me?

___In regards to light throttle, I think we are headed toward common ground but anything near WOT? Not a chance in hell.

___Do not worry about staying on the right side of me in the least. We have some of the best back and forth discussions when in the head to heads here at GH

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Just an FYI, this is the email I got back from Ron today:



That was in reply to me asking if there was any newer microcode than the July 2005 version I'm currently running. I've already tested mine for engine off, key in the on position coasting and it doesn't recognise that as a valid "on" condition. Looks like it will be a little while longer to get that specific feature working. Still, for folks who don't switch off the engine while in motion, the July '05 microcode seems to be very good.

 

Hi AZCivic:

___Thanks for the quick reply. The Scan Gauge is still useless to me and probably most hybrid drivers w/ EV/Stealth/AS modes until he fixes this issue …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Hi all -

Thought I would revive this thread since there seems to be a number of people here who are using the ScanGauge and are familiar with its operation.

I have been using one in my non-hybrid car since early Nov., and would like to use it to learn & evaluate the pulse & glide technique. As has been mentioned, the unit doesn't seem to recognize "key on, engine off" as a valid state, and seems to stop collecting & reporting fuel economy data within a few seconds of the ICE being shut off.

That said, I'm operating the unit in "fuel type = gas" mode. As another poster pointed out, there is a mode in the release I'm using where "fuel type = hybrid". Can anyone say whether this mode recognizes ICE off/key on? (Or what its differences are from "fuel type = gas"?)

I have e-mailed ScanGauge's Ron DeLong a couple of questions in the past, and he has always responded eventually. But I suspect that he has become MUCH busier in the past 2 months - word-of-mouth about the SG is all over the 'net now. Deservedly so, too; I've found it to be a fantastic tool.

I haven't e-mailed Ron on this question - thought I'd first put it to the collected wisdom found here.

cheers-
Darin

http://www.MetroMPG.com

 

I see the question in my previous post was recently discussed in this thread.