Although a hybrid driver, I had thought that E85 seemed also to be a good idea, but lately I'm starting to change my mind.

First, a recent article on MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17842304
that says that flex-fuel vehicles have actually caused more gasoline to be burned because these vehicles are allowed to bypass fuel efficiency standards. Hundreds of thousands of less efficient flex fuel vehicles are being manufactured and since hardly anyone uses E85, they just burn more gas.

But then more Ethanol production is on the way, good news, or is it. Another article saying a huge amount of corn will be planted due to the huge increase in Ethanol production coming. But costs are still expected to rise across a number of products because of the demand. Ok, maybe spending a bit more money on food is worth it if that means burning less gasoline.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17870172/

Then last night while watching a show concerning climate change, they had a segment that was saying that Ethanol and other Biofuels actually put more CO2 in the air then burning gasoline, and that following thru with a wholesale switch to Ethanol will greatly increase the rate at which CO2 is building up in the atmosphere quickening climate changes. Good luck trying to grow corn if the climate continues to change...

They also said these fuels produce more ozone causing pollution as well. Their point was that Ethanol is a nightmare and the true solution lies with continued development of electric or hydrogen powered vehicles. (Of course they took the time for a quick shot of the lead scientist guy driving his Prius).

 

I agree... ethanol is a BIG MISTAKE. I never liked the idea for many reason, but mainly because there are other sources out there that have better potential. Bio-diesel from algae for example.

 

I've seen only a few flex fuel vehicles here in the boston area and those have been large suv's or pick-ups. There are no E85 stations that I know about in MA so why would anyone even buy a vehicle like this. I have seen CH4 (CNG) refueling stations so a vehicle that runs on natural gas would be much cleaner and the fuel is readily available now. You can purchase a CNG honda civic and install your own refueling station in your garage. Why aren't these vehicles being used by the general public? I've seen some fleet vehicles but never a privately owned one. Has anyone seen one of these CNG civics??

 

I don't have any problem with E85 and look forward to the kit to make a Prius into an E85 vehicle. It doesn't seem to be that hard of a problem and then we can 'get over it.'

Bob Wilson

 

let me start by saying I am very against ethanol.

however the Co2 situation is a little more complex as the corn captures Co2 from the atmosphere as it grows, this is offsetting the release when the fuel is burned. Burning oil releases previously sequestered Co2.

So, when burning gas we are pumping Co2 into the atmosphere that was trapped for millions of years, when burning ethanol we are releasing Co2 that the corn trapped while growing.

bottom line though, this technology was adopted by GM because it let them keep making crappy cars, but act like they are trying to move in the right direction. This is THE only play GM knows how to make. Every time an emerging technology threatens their old reliable predictable internal combustion system they act as if they are adopting it and then intentionally squash it. The ethanol thing just lets them skip the adopting something new and just jump head first into the bad decision part of the process.

dont count on GM ever moving towards a good sustainable solution to transportation. If you need a reminder just look at their history. They were prosecuted for destroying mass transit. Destroying electric mass transit and installing internal combustion buses. They ripped up the tracks so no one else could come in and replace the trollies.

I urge everyone to read the book "Internal Combustion"
http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Combu...821940-5909420

get the audio CD and listen to it while you commute. Towards the end you will start to get a very clear picture of why GM is the way it is. Sickening, frightening, and bleak.

 

It's a question of ethics: converting food into fuel means hungry bellies somewhere.

Using less fuel makes much more sense than using too much fuel, especially if that fuel was made from food.

Harry

 

Don't we have a significant amount of oil and gas-powered power plants? Assuming the answer is yes, then let's build ethanol power plants instead. You avoid the massive instucture for distrubuting E85 to the pump and make percentage of gasoline that can be refined from our imports greater for our cars. We might even be able to simplify it even more by skiping the conversion of celluoid ethanol and just have bio-mass power plants.

With ethanol products singled to generate electricity, Detroit can focus on more fuel-efficient vehicles. If Detroit wants to tap into bio-mass and ethanol-powered power plants - build plugin hybrids.

Simpler and less waste from the infrastructure.

 

Droid13- I also heard that corn production was going up because of the increased demand for ethanol, and I was highly dismayed. The amount of federal subsidies for corn production that already exist is alarming, and it's all based on this assumption (false) that demand is decreasing, prices are terribly low, and we need to pay farmers not to grow corn because they produce more than anyone could use or pay for at a price that would net growers any profits. This is absurd these days, and most of the payments go to big agribusiness corporations instead of the family farmers who might actually arguably need the protection from price fluxuations that the law was originally about.

Furthermore, corn is far from the best place to get ethanol. If our ethanol production is going to come out of corn, then I'm against it. I know that people from big corn states, like my own state of Illinois, are guilty of this, including a number of politicians I respect, but I have to opine that the water-intensive and energy-poor process of making corn into ethanol is still ridiculously wasteful, even if that means Illinoisans won't profit from this change in policy.

Harry: converting food into fuel is not actually what's going on here. (besides, sugar cane or switchgrass, etc. would make far better ethanol). The corn that will be used to make this ethanol wouldn't feed people, anyway. Most of the corn that's grown for this either would not be grown in the absence of this demand or would go to feed cattle or be used in some other type of manufacturing by-product. These days, the things that are made out of corn are more ubiquitous than the stars in the sky- everything from soaps and beauty products to plastics and additives.

And why is that? Not because corn is just inherently more useful than other possible products. Most of the reasons are historical and political, even economic. Ever read Catch 22? Remember the part where Milo gets stuck with buying the entire Egyptian cotton harvest and keeps coming up with insane ways to get rid of it? Cotton is a useful, good thing most of the time, but not when you have so much of it that you try to make people eat chocolate-covered cotton *****. Corn-based ethanol is like the chocolate-covered cotton *****. I hope that makes sense.

 

True enough, but already the price of chicken has gone up because of ethanol makers' demand for corn. The price of corn is up, so as a direct result the price of chickens is up. So while humans eat a relatively small percentage of the corn crop, we also like to eat chicken and other meat, and those prices are all going up because of ethanol.

If corn goes up, I would guess other grain prices would follow.

The fact is, using corn for ethanol production raises our grocery bills, which is something we have no say in. I don't like it. I'm conserving energy by driving nothing but fuel efficient vehicles, and I resent people driving around in Tahoes and Yukons who use way too much fuel, and have not only raised the price I pay for gasoline, now they are raising my grocery bills!

Harry

 

Still blaming the Tahoe driver than never asked for ethanol, instead of the government mandates that force this obvious consequence.

Corn subsidies and ethanol mandates raise not only your food prices but your taxes too.

I avoid ethanol in my gas, but the government is making it harder for me to buy only what I want.