Your being negative again Noel!

You need to relax and practice "N" gliding in EV as a start. Once you get the hang of that, add some sort of Pulse to it. You have to learn to walk before you can run so take it one step at a time. If you look at the beginning of my mileage log I did poor when I first started learning the '09 FEH system. The OEM tank MPG was 2 -3 MPG high, but my SGII was about 5 -6 MPG high. I was driving around thinking I was getting 50MPG till I started dividing the gallons at the pump and the miles I went.

Look at the advantages of your elevation at home going downhill. Do you even know about how Ford has a Warm-Up strategy Patent for this drivetrain? How it works and when it's working? The warm-up strategy can drain your battery down to 32% SoC if your battery is low when you first start your FFH. Ford programmed the PCM to retard the timing when you first start the engine so the engine warms up faster for emissions. The battery starts draining because most of the torque is provided by the electric motor while the engine warms up. Watch your engine idle in the morning as you accelerate, and then look at the assist gauge. I use this programming to increase my MPG and battery SoC management.

Get into the nuts and bolts of your drivetrain and learn how it works. You don't have to take the long routes to work to get better mileage. Look at a new map for new routes. I discover new routes all the time that I never knew existed. I have so many shortcuts that are excellent for MPG that very few people know about so there is very little traffic. I get around faster than most people because most people don't use their head planning.

GaryG

 

Indeed, if you consider well-founded skepticism as being negative.

I have a pretty good sense I believe of what you are trying to impart, the principles and practice behind them. I am very aware of look-ahead driving vis a vis traffic flow, when to charge and when to glide, and all of the other basics such as higher PSI and other considerations.

I took a 180 mile trip today, down the hill, and south to Sacramento, on a highway at 55 with considerable traffic, and then to I-5 as I approached Sacramento, with ample traffic involved, and then thru more and more urban highways and arterials to my destination and back home. I was very mindful to employ gliding when I could afford to, charge-wise, or if I needed to slow because of a light or other condition, I would leave in drive to charge the battery more. I employed P&G where it was appropriate based on situational awareness and understanding of the drive train.

If you are doing the lion's share of your miles 25-45mph, with no traffic pressure, coasting to stops because you have no traffic pressure, then this is believable. But this begs a whole other question: if this is the typical route, why not use a mini electric car with a top speed of 45mph or so, and call it good? Probably get crazy good mileage. I guess the midsize car/suv gives you the option of using it more conventionally, but it's kinda odd if that is you usual venue. I like the Fusion's stock perf right outa the box with just the basics for smart driving. My direct route will get me to my destination alot faster than taking back roads at an ave speed of 35 or 38.

I'll try a shot next Thursday on my once a week commute across the valley to Willows, and seek out the most efficient set of back farm roads I can find and stay in the 25-45mph range. That should add probably 20min to my commute, since I now average around 50mph, and it takes me about an hour to get there. It would be fun to see what one trip looked like, it should be readily apparent on that interval, I just hate to reset my mpg gauge for one trip.

 

Noel, the 1,445 single tank 80 plus MPG Wayne and them did was not real world driving. It was however to prove a point and do a kids charity fund raiser. We all donated a dollar for each guess of how far they could go on a tank of gas and I put 20 guesses in to win a new SGII which was the prize. I think my numbers where 1320 - 1340 miles on a single tank of gas. As you can see I under estimated the miles.

Wayne did a review on the '10 Milan Hybrid prior to the charity event and I expressed disappointment that he only got 59mpg during his test tank. Ford gave Wayne the same FFH he drove in the charity event to go for the 1,000 mile tank in a more realistic driving world and here are the results:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22218

Note that Wayne was using E10 on this tank where he was able to fill with regular gas during the charity event. I know Wayne as he came down to meet me here in Florida and we drove my '05 FEH hundreds of miles to the Sebring 12 hour race with one other top hypermiler in this Country from Oregon, Billy. Billy won 1st Place at the '07 Hybridfest MPG Challenge in his class with a Honda Insight and I won 1st Place that year with him in a friends (Debbie Katz) '05 FEH in that class. Debbie"s OEM Nav MPG gauge was Maxed Out at 60mpg on my 27 mile City and Hwy drive, but I calculated I got 61.8mpg with the SGII. Debbie holds a documented lifetime MPG record in her '05 FEH at over 40mpg. I hold the lifetime MPG documented record in my '09 FEH right now at 52mpg with over 23,000 miles On it so far.

Besides Wayne's FFH reviews, I see no one driving an FFH recording MPG like his but I know him and have driven with him and know it is real. I let Billy's girlfriend drive my '05 FEH for the first time in Sebring around town with the four of us and she averaged 52mpg with my instructions. We all help each other learning to drive with what we call clinics. Wayne is in California all the time and I know he would be happy to give you a clinic in your FFH. Let him drive your commute and I'd bet he would get 62mpg or better on the same path you take without any trouble.

GaryG

 

Well, if it's 25-45mph, back roads, little to no traffic, then I could see it as possible. I seriously doubt he or anyone could do 62mpg on the roads I use, which are light traffic, but with an average speed of 50mph. 62mpg would be an over 50% increase in mpg, which would have to come from some very severe deviances from typical driving in terms of times, routes, traffic, tricks, etc. I think you guys are really talking apples and oranges, which I think you have agreed with tacitly.

Gary, here is a very telling comment from Debbie:

"Debbie Anders (Debbiekatz): . . . 60 + mpg can occur with the ICE-On for short periods.

ICE-On for short periods? Yes, this implies some real milking, some real slow speeds, and again becomes pretty much a novelty (ie, not too practical, except in very specific circumstances). Fun to play with however, I would agree. Fortunately, the FFH is bestowed with a boatload of nice audio features, so adding 20 min to my trip is not a huge issue, since I love listening to Sirius and podcasts ;o)

 

I personally don't like to drive on the highway below 55mph and prefer 60-65 on the short times I do. Even with this I do P&G in "D" if no one is behind me between 55-65mph and make use of DFSO. It appears I have more choices in the routes I take than you. As far as time, that's all we got on this earth so I make the best of it. If I drive slow, it's because the speed limit is slow or there is no one behind me so I can do perfect P&G between 25 - 35mph. I lived in Santa Clara CA and traffic is not new to me there or here. I try to avoid traffic but I'm in it much more than I like. When given the choice to drive to downtown WPB a beach road or I-95, I prefer the beach road and it's a little less distance. I also have the 7 speaker Nav system in both my FEH's and enjoy that while saving gas.

It's not about the money as some people think, it's about enjoying what I do. I just spent $17,000 dollars on a new FE 150hp Honda 4 stroke outboard for my '86 Whaler to save a little gas. I just don't like Big Oil even before they took a big crap in our ocean.

I don't talk that much to Wayne except in a few post. He recommended me for that hypermiling interview and test drive of that BMW X6 Hybrid in Miami, so I split the cash with him. Join his Website and ask him yourself if your interested. Wayne is one hell of a nice guy and just loves hypermiling anything. If you get a chance with him for a clinic, hang on when he takes a corner!

GaryG

 

Haha! Even I figured that out! I corner way faster than I used to esp if it's a case of avoiding braking/regenerating or staying in EV.

I hear ya Gary. I think I have it figured out--it's not magic as I suspected, it's just a case of finding places you can pull it off and having in interest in doing it. As I say, I look forward to playing with it on my commute from Paradise, CA to Willows, CA. There are back roads. Even the main route I take it would be possible to do maybe 40-50% of ideal technique (as I imagine them, albeit crudely by your standards) since it is a low trafficed area most of the way. That last 10 mile ascent back into Paradise (to 2,000 feet up from about 500 feet) is a bear, and whittles down progress visibly. And as I say, I too enjoy driving at any speed mainly because of the comfort and great Sony audio. I hate to reset my mpg indicator but I guess it will recover fast.

If you have a way to play mp3's in your car audio, which you must, I highly recommend the free and wonderful 65 1-hour/podcast series by Christian Shorey, PhD from the Colorado School of Mines available on iTunes. He covers everything from the Big Bang forward in so many directions, geology, physics, mythology, energy issues, you name it, and he has a nice sense of humor. Some of the initial podcasts are a bit dry (ie the geology) but it is great and he really did a fine job of covering so much science.

Do you have any thoughts on whether an aftermarket Lithium Ion battery will come out for current hybrids? This seems like a no brainer since the rest of these cars should last for many many, many miles, at least the ICE should. I would think that a Lithium Ion battery would also add signficant boosts on efficiency since they charge and discharge faster, and could store more total energy in the same size battery.

 

Wayne missed a road going into the Sebring race track and had to make a U-turn I'll never forget. I didn't know my '05 FEH could take that hard of a 360 without turning over or going up on two wheels. I didn't react because that's not my nature but I could tell he was looking for my reaction. Wayne then said some people that ride with him can't handle that kind of move! After I got home later I found out my wife is one of those people.

I love driving in hills like your describing because it's a challenge and I like a good challenge. You know you have a different "L" gear strategy that the older FEH's don't have? My '09 FEH is the same as your FFH and I would play with "L" on the downhill after the battery is full. The engine start and runs in "L" but you get full fuel-cut with DFSO at any speed above 6mph. Also, light braking downhill will heat a cold battery by charging it.

Our electric companies are now testing plug-in hybrids and I just seen another one yesterday. There are a few aftermarket Prius plug-ins in the hybrid mileage log at Cleanmpg.com and they seem to be growing. My bet is they will keep growing and the prices to convert will get much cheaper. Don't forget about the low volume of FEH's that were built and that can't hurt the value as they get old. I bought one of 513 original Shelby Mustangs that were built at the LAX Airport for $1,700 back in 1973 and they made a movie "Gone In 60 Seconds" about the '67 GT500. Who knows, the older FEH may drive the price of the new FEH and FFH up and make them worth converting to plug-ins later.

GaryG

 

• Yes, I noticed that. We have an 07 FEH which has the old style L. I'm usually trying to avoid the engine reving so high on downhills I usually avoid low unless I really need more braking.
• I think there might still be an indication for non plug-in Li ion batteries for straight hybrids as I understand it, because they can charge and discharge at a significantly higher rate and hold more charge so they become a better battery in that they will improve what a straight hybrid will do, ie regeneration mechanisms will work better. In this regard, they are arguably better than what they can do with plug-in, from the point of view of improving efficiency, since with plug-ins that you charge, you are using more electricity, arguably coming from fossil fuels in large part still. Look at it this way: if your HV battery worked twice as good, you should probably get an almost doubling of what your current HV battery did for the vehicle, which sounds decent. So the stock FFH with basic good driving techniques should maybe get somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 mpg instead of 40 or so. That would be the environmentally good thing to do, versus buy a whole new rig. I'm guessing the ICE in these suckers should go for 300K miles no problem! Low revs and it's off quite a bit of the time.

 

Noel, I have to disagree here based on my experience improving mileage in our present FEH. A more efficient battery would be an improvement but it would still take to much gas to recharge and use the limits in EV. In other words, I don't use the capability of our present battery SoC because it's less efficient for the engine to run charging the battery. You ask me what are the lower limits and higher limits I try to maintain SoC at. I have a lower limit based on a reserve so I will never be at a low speed or stop with the engine running (SoC below 40-42%). On the other hand, I don't let the SoC get charged to it full limits unless I'm forced to keep the engine running because of higher speeds (highway driving). Now, in your situation you have a long downhill that it would help because your getting more energy from regen than the present battery holds. You could still plan on using that energy with a plug-in charging system and not plugging it in at the top of the hill at night. At work, you could let it charge during the day and use that charge to get home again.

What I'm saying is having that choice to plug-in is worth more than you give it credit for. On the other hand, I agree that an all electric vehicle does not give you as much choices as a plug-in Vehicle with just a generator/engine combination to give you electric power only when the battery SoC gets low. I'm like you, we're going to pay for that house current when we use it but I like a choice in the matter between gas prices and my electric bill.

One other thing to consider is highway driving. Have you ever had a battery reconditioning event on the highway? I have and it was real neat. The battery charged to ~92% and then started a rapid discharge using the traction motor. The CC was set On 60mph and as the battery discharge my Instant MPG went to 90mpg. I was getting engine Assist by the electric motor at 100% while the engine was at idle load only. If we could get 100% load coming from the electric motor at engine idle load at highway speeds with a plug-in, there is that possibility of 90mpg at 60mph. Not bad for a SUV don't you think? Now I see how Ford was talking 120mpg in the plug-in Escape. I could add in some P&G and other hypermiling techniques and man, I'm in business.

GaryG

 

You make good points.

For sure that is why I say more battery capacity (total storage capacity and also how quick it stores energy and releases stored energy, because both routes down the hill that I use have me losing potential energy and significantly. Usually by halfway down the hill I am giving up energy just because of the limits of this battery. Also, I think there is something to a battery storing more energy and releasing it better than a different type of battery. Now add a few PV panels on the roof, now we're talking plug-in hybrid