Intuitively, this still, in no way, flies for me. You are talking about drastic efficiency improvements with the mpg quoted, and I am having difficulty seeing how this is possible, even with staying in 25-45mph speed areas, especially where traffic is presssuring you. The difference between Tank MPG and the readout from the Fusion's mpg monitoring system is barely signficant in my case, so this tells me using an SGII device cannot in any way impact efficiency to the scale you are describing. Something has to be missing in the presentation. For example: I usually take a direct route to work, which would be about 18 miles one way. I could choose to take back routes to stay in the 25-45mph zone, P&Ging the whole way, and add 6 miles to the trip. This amounts to a 33% increase in length of trip, so that while I obtained 50mpg on the high efficiency route, I added 33% more miles, and effectively worsened real efficiency. Is this what is happening?

I don't doubt your figures, but I do believe something very signficant is missing from the discussion here, I just don't know what that could be. As I say, I do always employ a very significant set of smart driving practices:

• Never use the heater in the cooler months until the care has already warmed up to the point EV mode is not overridden by demand for hot air from the heater
• AM in EV mode whenever possible, if it makes sense in other areas
• Use alternate routes if it does not add extraordinary distance
• Removed all excess weight from my trunk (ie, the golf clubs stay out)
• Avoid using headlights unless truly needed. Same same for A/C.
• Tires are at 44psi
• Starts are smooth but not crazy sluggish
• Anticipate signal light changes so that I rarely have to stop if at all possible
• Tease the car into EV whenever possible by backing off on the throttle, kind of P&G'ing.

All these things add a few mpg, that is it. Maybe 3-4 I'm guessing.

This may help me: describe what I would experience if I were to sit in your FEH with you. From key on, to completing an 18 mile commute. My particular commute cannot be very ideal for hypermiling, as I live at 2,000' and commute to 500', and back home again. BTW, what does putting the car in neutral in EV mode do? I don't think I've noticed any change in resistance to coasting, but perhaps I didn't notice when I tried it.

 

Your having difficulty seeing how this is possible is a normal response from people that don't understand the techniques involved. You are doing some good things to improve MPG, but P&G for instance, you don't have a clue about. You need to understand not only the techniques, but the drivetrain also. Please read more about hypermiling and I will explain in as much detail as I can start to finish after I get back home today.

GaryG

 

Here is an article on P&G: http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm

Does that capture it pretty well Gary? I do elements of this, but clearly due to ambient traffic speeds this is not too possible to do for me on my work commute in the ideal speed range for this.

 

I'm back now.

Your not thinking positive Noel, I do it on a daily basis in every kind of traffic. I control the P&G, P&G does not control the car. There is the Warm-up P&G, Slow P&G, Target P&G ( ideal speed range for Max MPG) and High Speed P&G. They all work great but you have to stop or change your acceleration and glide pattern with traffic when you need to.

A few years ago I did glide test out in the country with Wayne's instructions and discovered a gold mine for saving gas. He had me glide from 40mph to a stop in D and neutral in EV. When I calculated the distance differences, I was gliding 36 - 38% further in neutral. This hit me like a ton of bricks and from that day On, my MPG never looked back. We had arguments in the FEH group (not Wayne) as to why this was possible and your going to hear it now again. Neutral is a mode (two modes really) that stops all regen. If your coasting in D, the mode allows the traction motor to turn into a generator from the turning wheels to give you slight charging to the battery. Neutral mode allows no regen and the CVT is freewheeling. There is no gear changing in our eCVT and Reverse is just a change in direction of the traction motor (MG2).

Forget how P&G is done in a Prius the FEH and FFH have been taken to a higher level than what that article says, but it's right and wrong in some areas. The '09 FEH and FFH both have DFSO (deceleration fuel shut Off) while the engine is running without any fuel. In DFSO the engine is turning with the electric motors at a fixed idle speed in D (drive). So this means with our new drivetrains we can glide in "D" above EV speed and not burn any fuel. When we glide to EV speed the engine stops running and you can then get a better (longer faster) glide by shifting to neutral.

I'll stop typing now if your not interested in going further or want to ask another question. Anyone else can jump in here also.

GaryG

 

Gary, this sounds like the nuts n bolts for the most part, and doesn't seem too hard to accomplish, overall. It seems the only thing missing is a pre-programmable P&G mode, or at least a neutral/drive toggle actuater button on the steering wheel. It does beg a few questions:

1. What do you believe the ramifications are of constantly switching in and out of neutral in terms of wear on the switch, and/or other considerations?
2. Let's say one has mastered the various P&G types as you mention, with cold start and higher speeds variations, etc. What % of your fuel economy improvements do you believe is coming from optimally applied P&G techniques? I'm guessing P&G (and all its situational awareness requirements needed to optimize P&G) is accounting for the lion's share of improvements (ie, over 'stock' economy).

Thanks, keep 'em comin'!

 

Glad your enjoying the ride with me.

Over the years with the FEH, I've shifted in and out of neutral millions of times in my '05 and sometimes hundreds of times a day. I was doing it in my '09 since it went EV the first time I drove it. No problems ever to date, this eCVT is built like a rock. When I go EV and shift to neutral for a glide, I do it slowly to pick up a boost from regen to charge the battery more. Watch your Charge/Assist gauge as you let Off the gas pedal and go EV, regen kicks in for that boost and then returns to normal regen in "D". I got it down pat and know a good second in "D" as you go EV does wonders for your SoC.

I would say I try to get 50% of my P&G in the best speed zones if I can. This is where picking a route is important. I have a perfect route, a little faster route with more traffic and I-95 to choose from. There all about the same distance from home to work so time is the main factor making my choice. My perfect route gives me a little under 70mpg and I can get by with high 40's on I-95. The warm-up P&G helps a lot but Tank MPG average still drops fast during this time. The coastline route along Jupiter is where I try to make-up loss warm-up averages along my route. It turns into US-1 heavy traffic and stoplights about 1/3 the way on my 16 mile commute.

Keep your questions coming, I'm taking a break.

GaryG

 

"When I go EV and shift to neutral for a glide, I do it slowly to pick up a boost from regen to charge the battery more. Watch your Charge/Assist gauge as you let Off the gas pedal and go EV, regen kicks in for that boost and then returns to normal regen in "D"."

So, does this mean you do not shift into N until you are in EV? I noticed today, with a short trip, I could put it into N as soon as I hit the top end of my speed range, and it would go into EV mode quickly, versus back off on the throttle and cause EV to turn on. Tell me this, where is the status of your battery for most of your travels? When I tried P&G today on this short trip, the tendency was for the battery to simply discharge, as would be expected. I'm guessing you must balance this carefully.

I'm guessing, because of the necessities implied in my commute route, that for 3 of the 4 days I work, P&G will not add very much at all to the total efficiency outcome: on my cold start in the morning, I am essentially heading downhill for about 13 miles. By 1/3 of the way down, the battery is max charged. There will be no point in heading into neutral after that point, because in order to stay with the flow of traffic, I am pretty much forced to coast in D mode, effectively preventing EV from occurring. I could slow down to 45, stay in EV and neutral, but then I would need to ride the brakes, and as I say, the battery is fully charged at that point. When I get to the flat, normally I am very efficiently using up my charged battery and stay in EV mode 90% of the time until I get to the freeway, after which point I typically accel to about 63mph, then let off and coast, and reapply the throttle and instant MPG monitor shows I am right around 55mpg or so for about 4 miles on the freeway. Then it's down the off ramp, in EV mode again now, EV again after the stop, and from there it's about a 2 mile drive to my work on the flat, during which I am in EV mode 80% of this segment. And also, for my trip to Raley's for lunch, it's a cold start again, but I take a back route, and maybe do 60-75% in EV--it's about a 2 mile round trip. Then, it's back home. P&G can't be too effective on the way back on this route, can it? I'm not seeing it, in any case. I think under ideal flat road conditions, I can see P&G could be significant indeed. I do question, with my particular route, that I could possibly impact MPG more than maybe 4-5% with P&G, for my particular route. One day a week it's a 55m trip one way, with about 42 miles of it being in the flat valley, at speeds of 25-55. I baby it and do everything short of P&G as it's been described. I'll try and see how it goes with the principles you've described and see. I should be able to tell fairly quickly if this will add enough to be signficant. It should be, from what you are saying, but I am also newer at it, though as I've said, I am very aware of the other fundamentals mentioned in my other post.

Also Gary, I am assuming you are always referring, in your mpg reports, to tank mpg, not scangauge readings over ideal intervals, yes? Do you live in the flat lands? I would very much love to see what you could do with my car on my routes. It is fun to try these things, and it's good to know the shifting probably won't hurt my shifter, if it is similar to yours.

 

I wait till I get that boost from regen to shift into "N" after I go EV. Yes, you should be able to shift to "N" at any EV range and go EV still. I don't drop below 42% SoC and I try to stay above 43.5% SoC and start my pulses to build SoC to a minimum of 45% to burn Off SoC again in EV using CC (cruise control) and a steady state speed with traffic. When the battery gets down to ~44.0%, I shift back to "N" which cancels CC and glide to the end of the target glide speed. This is where I start a new pulse and begin building SoC above 45% again with P&G over and over.

Got to go, finish later.

GaryG

 

Never let your battery drain to the point of an automatic restart (40%) or from ordinary acceleration. This means from a complete stop, speeding up from EV or any kind of automatic restart from EV. Think about it, Ford wanted to make a smooth transition from EV to engine running as well as from engine On to EV. The problem is the computer adjust this smooth transition using the battery and the electric motors. This is at a cost of ~1.2% SoC almost every time you cause a restart from EV by accelerating or letting the SoC drop to 40% where you get an automatic restart. There is a way to restart the engine that I use every time I want the engine On that tricks the computer so you don't burn that 1.2% SoC every time. CarlD found this trick and posted about it at Cleanmpg.com. I tried it and it didn't work right at first, but I tried it a week latter and bingo! If you apply the right amount pressure with a tap of your foot on the accelerator pedal and let Off as fast as you can, the engine will start without the electric motors burning the 1.2% SoC. If you reapply acceleration as soon as the engine is started you should only burn ~.1 to .2% SoC and most of the time none. This is another MPG gold mine find!

The MPG numbers I go by are gallons pumped at fill-up and the miles from my last fill-up. The Mileage Log calculates all the figures and can be seen at
http://www.cleanmpg.com/cmps_index.php?page=garage Only the top 50 MPG are displayed but you can click On top 100 or All and you can see every one. You can also click % in the % of EPA and see mine in the top 50 in the Hybrid Section. My OEM Tank Average Gauge always reads about 4% Higher than gas pumped. Right now with ~600 miles trip my Nav Sys Tank reading is 60.9mpg average. My Scangauge is at 57.4mpg Tank average. I should go another 170 miles on this tank.

Yes, my State is flat for the most part and in my area. However, I get the best mileage in rolling hills. I can look at your conditions and make some suggestions if you want.

GaryG

 

It seems I would need to change routes, but as I say, I will end up putting more miles, have more complete stops, etc, and this intuitively doesn't fly for the techniques you are describing. I would love to see what you would do in this situation, because as I say intuitively it just isn't looking good. I tried some of this technique while in the flat part of my commute, and there is really no benefit, so this tells me this is very route/time/traffic dependent. Rolling hills in a rural setting would work well provided traffic was not an issue. Ford did very well indeed right out of the box as you can do quite well in any traffic condition by just following the simple things I currently employ. I look forward to seeing if anything shows up on my 55m commute with about 42 of it in the flatlands on slower roads. I already do pretty well in this environment, probably realistically around 45-47mpg or so right now were I to max out my normal practices. P&G when properly applied should add some more, but I can also say it may be a little more difficult to perform than I first guessed. For example, I was all set to put her in neutral when I realized that was not the efficient thing to do in this particular situation. You def need some serious situational awareness and practice to see when it makes mroe sense to P&G versus charge up the battery more and use it in areas which are highly favorable to EV driving.