2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
#41
06-28-2009, 09:10 AM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
You mentioned you had instructed in this stuff, hence I began using professor. Save your breath on the homework assignment.
I have the shop manual set for the FEH and have used them in formulating my answers above.
Your arm waving and attempts to wow people with time domain stuff, so much hot air. What you have conveniently forgotten is that the application of microprocessors to the control of machines has truly enabled us to do things that could barely be done well before.
But the fundamental machine operates the same regardless. Your attempt to say the equations only apply to a washing machine motor? What bluster.
Don't know where you taught but your self glorification tells me it was not at an accredited degree granting baccalaureate or higher engineering institution.
The net result of your attempts to wow people overly complex info is that you pass on bad info.
Have a nice day.
I have the shop manual set for the FEH and have used them in formulating my answers above.
Your arm waving and attempts to wow people with time domain stuff, so much hot air. What you have conveniently forgotten is that the application of microprocessors to the control of machines has truly enabled us to do things that could barely be done well before.
But the fundamental machine operates the same regardless. Your attempt to say the equations only apply to a washing machine motor? What bluster.
Don't know where you taught but your self glorification tells me it was not at an accredited degree granting baccalaureate or higher engineering institution.
The net result of your attempts to wow people overly complex info is that you pass on bad info.
Have a nice day.
#42
06-28-2009, 12:04 PM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
For those, few, who may have followed the interchange over synchronous machines (and probably yucked it up and laughed along the way) here are some thoughts:
- Microprocessors enable a level and frequency of control of machines previously not available previously.
- But microprocessors do not alter the fundamental principles of how the underlying machinery works.
- When someone proposes to tell you how time domain, and individual winding controls, and such, make something work while completely missing the significance of torque angle: they're "hauling timber."
- Such stuff is just sophistry.
- Microprocessors enable a level and frequency of control of machines previously not available previously.
- But microprocessors do not alter the fundamental principles of how the underlying machinery works.
- When someone proposes to tell you how time domain, and individual winding controls, and such, make something work while completely missing the significance of torque angle: they're "hauling timber."
- Such stuff is just sophistry.
#43
06-28-2009, 03:52 PM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
You mentioned you had instructed in this stuff, hence I began using professor. Save your breath on the homework assignment.
I have the shop manual set for the FEH and have used them in formulating my answers above.
Your arm waving and attempts to wow people with time domain stuff, so much hot air. What you have conveniently forgotten is that the application of microprocessors to the control of machines has truly enabled us to do things that could barely be done well before.
But the fundamental machine operates the same regardless. Your attempt to say the equations only apply to a washing machine motor? What bluster.
Don't know where you taught but your self glorification tells me it was not at an accredited degree granting baccalaureate or higher engineering institution.
The net result of your attempts to wow people overly complex info is that you pass on bad info.
Have a nice day.
I have the shop manual set for the FEH and have used them in formulating my answers above.
Your arm waving and attempts to wow people with time domain stuff, so much hot air. What you have conveniently forgotten is that the application of microprocessors to the control of machines has truly enabled us to do things that could barely be done well before.
But the fundamental machine operates the same regardless. Your attempt to say the equations only apply to a washing machine motor? What bluster.
Don't know where you taught but your self glorification tells me it was not at an accredited degree granting baccalaureate or higher engineering institution.
The net result of your attempts to wow people overly complex info is that you pass on bad info.
Have a nice day.
At any rate, I guess your ranting posts is about all one could expect from you at this point. You will note that not once did I question your knowledge of synchronous machines - because it was irrelevant! For understanding the power split device it doesn't matter if the rotational machines are single phase, polyphase, DC, AC, permanent magnet, variable reluctance, whatever. The type of machine just dictates the complexity and make-up of the controller. And as you unwittingly confirmed, for the FEH PM synchronous 3-phase AC motors it's pretty difficult and complicated to implement current mode control. But obviously it is done. One might wonder why these motors were chosen given the rigors of the controller design. Well, for power density and efficiency, these motors are pretty hard to beat. The controller issues are just the price of admission.
#44
06-28-2009, 06:36 PM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
Didn't read what you wrote, don't much care.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
#45
06-28-2009, 07:22 PM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
Didn't read what you wrote, don't much care.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
Get Real!
My last post here on GH!
GaryG
#46
06-28-2009, 09:27 PM
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
Didn't read what you wrote, don't much care.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
Your analogy of the "washing machine motor" tells me just how much you don't know of the underlying principles of motors & generators.
I infer that you know microprocessor controlled variable speed motor controllers very well but never studied the motors themselves.
A washing machine motor is a different kind of AC motor, an induction motor & it's single phase. Works on a very different principle and they are far cheaper to make, especially for small washing machine usage. These kind of motors do have the characteristic of slowing down with increasing load and if a constant speed is desired then the controller does have to compensate.
(And you know... an AC Synchronous motor won't start up alone, it has to have something to get it up to synchronous speed first, but then in the FEH the transaxle controller serves that purpose when it starts the frequency at zero and "spins" the motor up to start the engine.)
But that rpm "droop" characteristic is not true of a synchronous AC motor. So the Transaxle control unit does not have to change frequency or phase relationships or something else, to maintain FEH speed, but it does have to compensate with increased current to produce the additional power needed (recall my words about torque angle and its relation to power output).
Of course that power has to come from somewhere. How do you get more current into the traction motor at a constant speed - increase the applied voltage.
Its now clear what you don't understand about the FEH and its two Synchronous machines and how they work. So long as you spout variable speed motor control "stuff" as you have done without understanding the underlying machinery you will continue to mislead people.
It's not a crime that you have no clue about digital control of synchronous machines. But your inane comments about computers and their uses is just plain imbecilic. Sorry Bill, you've been vetoed.
#47
06-29-2009, 09:01 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
For those, few, who may have followed the interchange over synchronous machines (and probably yucked it up and laughed along the way) here are some thoughts:
- Microprocessors enable a level and frequency of control of machines previously not available previously.
Which came first, chicken or egg...???
Microprocessor control capability, SPEED capability, was around a tad bit before we had HIGH VOLTAGE/CURRENT Mosfet SWITCHING transistors that could be used for the HSD PWM inverters and back EMF regen "task".
- But microprocessors do not alter the fundamental principles of how the underlying machinery works.
- When someone proposes to tell you how time domain, and individual winding controls, and such, make something work while completely missing the significance of torque angle: they're "hauling timber."
- Such stuff is just sophistry.
Only if you don't wish to have a more complete understanding.
- Microprocessors enable a level and frequency of control of machines previously not available previously.
Which came first, chicken or egg...???
Microprocessor control capability, SPEED capability, was around a tad bit before we had HIGH VOLTAGE/CURRENT Mosfet SWITCHING transistors that could be used for the HSD PWM inverters and back EMF regen "task".
- But microprocessors do not alter the fundamental principles of how the underlying machinery works.
- When someone proposes to tell you how time domain, and individual winding controls, and such, make something work while completely missing the significance of torque angle: they're "hauling timber."
- Such stuff is just sophistry.
Only if you don't wish to have a more complete understanding.
#48
06-29-2009, 09:13 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
So I'm a know nothing fraud... and yet I devised a simple test about the FEH that you couldn't do. Where does that put you? You've had time to do that little quiz a hundred times over! Oh, but of course I'm sure you will say this is beneath you....at least show us the planetary gearset equations that you said I mis-used in your post #19 and tell us the actual generator speeds for those cases.
At any rate, I guess your ranting posts is about all one could expect from you at this point. You will note that not once did I question your knowledge of synchronous machines -
because it was irrelevant!
For understanding the power split device it doesn't matter if the rotational machines are single phase, polyphase, DC, AC, permanent magnet, variable reluctance, whatever.
Sorry, this statement is just patently WRONG...!
The only comparable "understanding" as to how AC permanent magnet rotor electric motors work would be stepper motors.
The type of machine just dictates the complexity and make-up of the controller. And as you unwittingly confirmed, for the FEH PM synchronous 3-phase AC motors it's pretty difficult and complicated to implement current mode control.
"...difficult and complicated.."
No, not once the mosfets became available. PWM "phase-lock" "current mode" power controllers have been being used for positional control of stepper motors since at least 1972.
But obviously it is done. One might wonder why these motors were chosen given the rigors of the controller design.
No, these motors are "design specific", the controller design would have been pretty much off-the-shelf, ask Edwin Sweo formerly of Baldor controls.
Well, for power density and efficiency, these motors are pretty hard to beat. The controller issues are just the price of admission.
At any rate, I guess your ranting posts is about all one could expect from you at this point. You will note that not once did I question your knowledge of synchronous machines -
because it was irrelevant!
For understanding the power split device it doesn't matter if the rotational machines are single phase, polyphase, DC, AC, permanent magnet, variable reluctance, whatever.
Sorry, this statement is just patently WRONG...!
The only comparable "understanding" as to how AC permanent magnet rotor electric motors work would be stepper motors.
The type of machine just dictates the complexity and make-up of the controller. And as you unwittingly confirmed, for the FEH PM synchronous 3-phase AC motors it's pretty difficult and complicated to implement current mode control.
"...difficult and complicated.."
No, not once the mosfets became available. PWM "phase-lock" "current mode" power controllers have been being used for positional control of stepper motors since at least 1972.
But obviously it is done. One might wonder why these motors were chosen given the rigors of the controller design.
No, these motors are "design specific", the controller design would have been pretty much off-the-shelf, ask Edwin Sweo formerly of Baldor controls.
Well, for power density and efficiency, these motors are pretty hard to beat. The controller issues are just the price of admission.
#49
06-29-2009, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
My final word on this. Bill, the traction motor and generator motor are both 3-phase AC, permanent magnet synchronous machines. Both can operate as motors or generators. You have repeatedly said that the only way to get more power from the generator is to increase RPM.
Well, Bill do the following: Code up traction motor torque and traction motor speed xgauges. Drive up to speed and let of the gas in D. Look at the torque and RPM values. Now pull the shifter into L. You will see a huge increase in torque as the speed DECREASES. You have increased the generated power by more than 10X while reducing the RPM.
NO, in the INSTANT case you have simply increased the output current flow LOADING of the generator(S) and therefore the voltage is lowered. P=I*E.
To think otherwise would put us into the realm of a "perpetual motion machine".
QED. Don't try to give me any lame crap about the differences in sizes of the motor/generators. They are essentially identical machines. You can not refute this. Any attempts to is just more Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose braying. You have been busted. Deal with it.
It's not a crime that you have no clue about digital control of synchronous machines. But your inane comments about computers and their uses is just plain imbecilic. Sorry Bill, you've been vetoed.
Well, Bill do the following: Code up traction motor torque and traction motor speed xgauges. Drive up to speed and let of the gas in D. Look at the torque and RPM values. Now pull the shifter into L. You will see a huge increase in torque as the speed DECREASES. You have increased the generated power by more than 10X while reducing the RPM.
NO, in the INSTANT case you have simply increased the output current flow LOADING of the generator(S) and therefore the voltage is lowered. P=I*E.
To think otherwise would put us into the realm of a "perpetual motion machine".
QED. Don't try to give me any lame crap about the differences in sizes of the motor/generators. They are essentially identical machines. You can not refute this. Any attempts to is just more Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose braying. You have been busted. Deal with it.
It's not a crime that you have no clue about digital control of synchronous machines. But your inane comments about computers and their uses is just plain imbecilic. Sorry Bill, you've been vetoed.
Last edited by wwest; 06-29-2009 at 09:32 AM.
#50
06-29-2009, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: 2009 Hot Weather High RPMs?
Both of you seem to be forgetting why there are TWO MG's.
Rolling along, say even downhill, a STEEP downhill, the two "motors", via the power split device ("summing machine"), can be driven "opposite" each other to prevent, or regulate, the voltage generation level.
On the other hand if the controller "locks" (phase locks) the smaller MG in place and the ICE is stopped the batteries BEST need to be charged.
The power output, power generating capability, of either MG is "regulated" by controlling the speed and direction of the opposite MG and the ICE.
Think about why, how, it is possible for the ICE to be idling along and the car not move.
Rolling along, say even downhill, a STEEP downhill, the two "motors", via the power split device ("summing machine"), can be driven "opposite" each other to prevent, or regulate, the voltage generation level.
On the other hand if the controller "locks" (phase locks) the smaller MG in place and the ICE is stopped the batteries BEST need to be charged.
The power output, power generating capability, of either MG is "regulated" by controlling the speed and direction of the opposite MG and the ICE.
Think about why, how, it is possible for the ICE to be idling along and the car not move.
Last edited by wwest; 06-29-2009 at 09:48 AM.
