Hybrids that use some element of technology normally associated with Hybrids, but get a dubious amount of extra miles per gallon as a result. GM is the best at accomplishing this. The goal is to get a marketing and possible tax benefit from the label.

Of course UCS can spell it out better than I can - check the bottom of this page:
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/c...-a-hybrid.html

They list several vehicles - mostly GM, interestingly - that get 2mpg or fewer benefit from their "hybrid innovations." UCS's concern is that the "hybrid" label will be used by dealers to trick buyers into buying based on false assumptions about reduced fuel consumption, and GM will be insulated from the blame, able to blame dealerships instead of accepting the blame where it belongs.

They're responding both by ensuring new legislation (and in the past the AT-PZEV and SULEV ratings we get!) has standards beyond labelling, and by attempting to educate consumers so they aren't tricked. They're not opposed to the vehicles, they're opposed to the obvious potential for confusion.

 

GMs hybrid offerings are indeed hybrids and will even give the Escalade better than UCS's claim of only 1-3 mpg. Look at smaller SUVs that are still popular and what will happen there - the Vue Greenline gets a 7-9 mpg benefit from a very inexpensive hybird design. To suggest these improvement should be punished is mental midget thinking.

These cars are not going to get huge, if any tax breaks. And since the tax breaks are really subsidies to the car makers, they should not be in place forever. Even the Prius credit is "dubious" - the size of the credit is related to city mileage improvement. One of the biggest complaints about Prius mileage is it doesn't get the EPA city estimates in the real world. On both highway and city, the Civic and Prius get about the same gas mileage, but the Prius gets a 50% larger subsidy - because the EPA estimating process is no good at estmating the hitech hybrids. And I openly admit that the inflated tax credit was a factor in my decision to buy a Prius over a Civic.

People still want big cars with horsepower. Hybriding is a good way to improve mileage and emissions, and still give people the size and performance they want. But if someone's social agenda is death to the Hummer no matter the improvments, then I wouldn't give that agenda much credibility. And that is the attitude of many of the Prius/hybrid snobs - indicated by the notion that improving the fuel efficiency of an Escalade by 20% is simply "putting lipstick on a pig" or "polishing a t*urd."

 

Curtis, it seems you're bitter about this issue.

I suppose that "punish" is too harsh a word. As hybrids, they do not receive as large a tax credit as "full" hybrids like the Prius.

Now on one hand, you must admit the Prius gets better milage in more scenarios than the Vue. That leads one to the obvious conclusion that the Prius gets a better tax credit than the Vue.

On the other hand, I see your point that perhaps the way those tax credits are defined isn't perfect - and I don't think UCS would disagree with you there either. But writing a perfect bill is quite the challenge; what's more, UCS isn't Congress - they don't get to decide what's put into law. All they can do is suggest legislation - most of which is thrown out before it ever gets a vote - and promote legislation that's close enough - as has happened in this case.

Do you know what would have passed if not the bill that gave the Prius it's large tax credit for 2006, and the smaller one for the Civic Hybrid? A bill that gave a flat $25,000 tax credit to all vehicles that run on diesel. Would that have been better for the planet and the hybrid market?

Clearly not. So, I'm with you in that the Civic and the Vue should possibly not be dramatically lower than the Prius in tax credits based on milage alone - though technology-wise, if you view the credits as rewarding innovation, perhaps they're not so out of whack. And you have to admit, it's better than what would have happened had the bill been left to linger.

As for the mission against the Hummer - although it is a rolling threat to the environment, the real problem with it is the current system of rewards - that being for a period of time buying one got you a $100,000 tax credit, and you now get $25,000 off your taxes - both putting hybrid credits to shame. When that credit is gone, you'll see my campaign against the Hummer die out immediately, and I bet you'll see UCS's attention turn to better priorities as well. It's been harming us for a long time and it's got to go, immediately. As for the Hummer itself - it can stay. Choice is good.

 

Something like the GM Silverado "hybrid" pickup. All it does is stop the motor from idling when stopped. It increases fuel economy and decreases emissions a trivial amount, but allows GM to advertise it as, "THE FIRST AND ONLY HYBRID TRUCK IN THE WORLD" or some such nonsense.

There are others who don't like the concept of a muscle hybrid. Something like the Lexus 330HP car. Yeah, it lowers emissions, but only improves FE a few MPH.

 

Ah, you cynic you!

I've seen it at 2.69, but because I filled up a couple of weeks ago (2.80), I'm not looking.

What I like to tell people about my purchase of my Prius is that, although rather expensive, I'[m getting a 3500.00 tax credit (is it a credit?) and all the stuff I got on the Prius is pretty much what I would have on a more expensive car - and in addition, I'm getting great gas milage.

As was pointed out by another contributor a while back, looking at the relationship between the price of gas and the price of the car as a return on an investment is not quite correct as the car is not likely to appreciate as would be the case in the purchase of a house or stocks. Autos generally decrease in value as soon as they're driven off the lot.

At any rate, you're still paying less per mile.

In physics we know what goes up must come down. In the case of the price of gas, what goes down must go up.

 

As gas prices go down, G.W. Bush's approval rating goes up. That is the conclusion from latest poll (in LA Times article this past Thursday). People are feeling good about economy because gas prices are cheap again.

Scary how our elections and economy can be so rigged and fragile.

 

"Cheap" at 2.65/gal?

But you're right. People feel good about the economy and GWB.

To slaughter a Shakesperean phrase: "What fools these mortals be".

centrider

 

Eh I'm no fan of Bush but I'll be fair: It worked for Clinton too. Of course, that helped Clinton get over 70% on his approval rating. Bush is working on breaking 45%.

Hopefully Senate races are participated in by voters that are a little more savvy than Presidential ones... we'll see.

I'm with you guys about feeling happy about having a great hybrid on my hands even if gas prices go to 89 cents a gallon again (unlikely...). But it won't stop me from being mocked ;o) I guess the trouble is, I use the cost argument when I want to avoid the stigma of environmentalism, or avoid a big long explanation... or whatever. When gas prices get particularly low my easy out is exposed ;o)

 

Soopah, noticed you just bought a Prius, and had some experience with HCH. What were your reasoning to go with Prius? (Sorry this is not a Prius vs. HCH forum)

Noticed you are in Woodland Hills, hottest part of LA. Has your Prius AC been able to keep you cool when you start up the car?

 

I'd normally seek out the right spot to respond to this... but I suppose this thread has had its run.

First of all, I love the HCH. It's awesome. And to be honest, I miss its highway mileage - getting 50mpg on it was easier at speeds of 75-90 (typical California highway speeds) than in the Prius. And I like its looks better.

On the other hand... I drove Priuses via Zipcar back in Boston on a regular basis, so while I was quick to notice the above advantages over the Prius, I was also quick to notice the drawbacks. The number one drawback that put me in a Prius over the HCH was the stop-and-go mileage. The HCH starts the gas as you release the brake, so even if the electrical motor could provide enough torque to move you from a stop (debated...), the computer isn't going to let you. So, in stop-and-go, you constantly kick the gas into gear when it simply isn't needed. Spoiled by the Prius, I knew I could do better. That might have been OK with me though. What made me get rid of my deposit I had down on the HCH was when the computer got confused in stop-and-go - the gas would come on... and stay on. About 50% of the times that I stopped in stop-and-go, the engine just sat their idling for no reason.

I tried a few tricks to get the Civic to forcibly shut the engine off when it would idle for minutes, but none were reasonable; for example, turning off the car is too many steps - you need to shift into Park, turn it off, turn it on, shift back - and not a Prius turn on and shift, you restart the gas engine and wait for it to turn over. I decided that, knowing the Prius so well, if I bought this car and got stuck in traffic with it, and was nearing running out of gas, I'd already be frustrated enough to be stuck in traffic - now I'd have to add these frustrations as well? Not acceptable.

Now on the other hand I've got the Prius and I'll admit when I see its mileage ride between 38 and 50 at normal highway speeds, I get wistful for the Civic. But my vew is that a little frustration when things are fine is much more acceptable than dumping more frustration on a bad day.

I think it would be illustrative to get 2 average drivers to drive a Prius and an HCH on the highway at 80 and in stop-and-go, and put those 2 MPG numbers on the GreenHybrid.com homepage. Although the HCH and the Prius can basically both get 48mpg, I don't think that comparison tells you the whole story. I feel confident the 2 numbers would be drastically different and show the 2's strengths.

Then again, I have seen some excessive emotional attachment to the MPG numbers of each car by some owners here, so I wonder if factual numbers like that would just cause religious trauma. I am pleased to see that most owners here are fine with facts that don't put their purchase in the lead every time though.

As for the Prius AC, it's actually more than powerful enough - that thing is cold. But I'm not the best judge to be honest - I dislike AC and prefer to just run the fans (non-AC) with the windows up at high speeds, and windows down at low speeds. When it's 90 out I run the AC and it's more than cold enough for me, but I think our days of 110 were over by the time I bought this car. And I'll admit one nerdy thing I do is when I'm stopping fast coming off a highway, I get as much regen as I can out of the brakes, but open the windows at the same time to create drag and further reduce the use of the conventional brakes. Not something to go about doing when you've had the AC on.