Look, GPS,

You can break out your stats and justification all you want. It is probably some of the same stuff that was used to convince the know-it-alls in DC to push this stuff down everyone's throat.

As far as ethanol being race fuel, so what? There isn't a race car in the world that is designed or used for maximum mileage....like a hybrid. The fact is, ethanol, whether present in 10% of fuel or 85%, reduces mileage.

My point was and still is....don't assume to speak for me, know what I think or claim to know that if I dislike A, I disapprove of B,C or D.

Joe

 

Interesting article on the energy balance of corn ethanol here:

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/USDA-...gy-aer-814.pdf

It compares many of the studies done that show both positive and negative NEV for corn ethanol. There conclusion is positive, and they discuss why, but since the show other results, you can draw your own conclusions.

 

And my point is... SO WHAT if it lowers MPG.

Would you be against running your car on tap water at $0.02 a gallon delivered to your home if it got 50% lower MPG?

MPG is a USELESS NUMBER unless you are in a Nascar race on the last lap, 70 laps since the last pit stop.

You don't like ethanol. Fine. You're under no obligation to explain, but it would help your POV if you had a valid reason.

I save money buying ethanol. My cost per mile can be lower using ethanol.
But price is not the same "spread" in all states.
Here is a shot from Nebraska, just a few miles from where it was made, so there are very low transport costs. That makes ethanol make a lot of sense, and I hope you all agree that burning it where you make it makes more sense than moving oil from the middle east to your neighborhood.

 

John,

I appreciate your response; I don't mind discussing our different points of view as long as we can be civil. Being extremely negative is harmful for the forum; it drives away users and readers.

As for the cost of ethanol, we are all aware that it is HEAVILY subsidized by states where it is in their best interest, including Nebraska, as well as by the federal government. So, the price you see at the pump isn't the true price of ethanol; we are all paying the subsidized true difference in cost through our tax dollars.

I saw a sign virtually identical to the one you included in the summer of '08 while I was on a trip to NORAD in Colorado Springs. In the $3/per gallon days, I would have probably used E85 if I was driving a car that could have used it, and accepted the lower mileage of E85. But, that is the point...it would have been my choice, not a decision made for me by the government and subsidized by my tax dollars.

In the interest of freedom, I would like to have a choice to use E10, E85 or some other fuel, not have the government make the decision for me "because we (Uncle Sam/Subsidy) decided that is what is best for you."

I bought a hybrid because it fits me, my driving and my lifestyle. Others have the choice to buy an E85-compatible car as an alternative to a hybrid, while others drive a Ford F-350 diesel duelly that will never haul anything heavier than a lawn tractor or a few pieces of plywood. While I think driving a 7,000 truck for image or ego is a dumb idea, I don't want to take that choice away from the person that wants to do that and is willing to pay for it.

Joe

 

The ethanol subsidy goes to the big oil company, not the producer.

It literally costs $1.40 to $1.90 to make/manufacture/distill the ethanol.

After it is already made, oil companies, the retailer gets 45 cents per gallon of ethanol that they sell. Note, this means they get 45 cents for every 10 gallons of E10 they sell.

This incentive was given to BIG OIL as they have all the infrastructure to distribute and dispense the fuel. But, this is also like asking coke to sell pepsi in one button of every vending machine. They are not going to do that out of kindness, but would be happy to for 45 cents a gallon.

You seem OK with the Gov. phasing out leaded gas for environmental reasons.
This is no different. EVERYONE can agree E10 is cleaner burning, and I will admit at a cost of MPG reduction.

But just like our hybrid cars have a catalyitic converter, the EPA would rather burn a lot of gas cleanly, than less gas with more emissions per gallon.
That is why a Hybrid car is programmed to always burn gas to keep the catalyist hot, even if you are coasting down a 10 mile long hill.

P.S. the only local or "state" subsidy for ethanol that I am directly aware of is in the form of tax breaks on the land used to build the ethanol facility. Usually this applies for 10 years, and then the ethanol plant must pay full taxes. And a few states initially put less tax on the ethanol sold at the pump, but I thought that only applies to E85 to encourage owners with flex fuel cars to make the switch, and that too is being phased out. But that is a small amount of dollars because very few people use E85 due largely to few available pumps... something like 1500 pumps only in the entire nation, mostly in the mid-west. The vast majority of ethanol is sold as E10, without (road) tax breaks.

 

I hope everyone understands that fuel ethanol DOES NOT compete with the world's food market.

There is a SURPLUS of food in North America, and there always has been ( well, the past 75 years anyway ).

There has ALWAYS been starving people in remote areas.

So if there has always been a surplus of food in some areas, and a shortage in other areas, how does the recent production of ethanol play into this?
IT DOESN'T.

If I waved a magic wand and doubled the corn crop this year... people would still be starving. It is because no one is willing or able to pay the cost to transport and re-distribute this surplus.

I can get you ( read into that "you" being a large orgnization, Unicef, GreenPeace, the Government of Etheopia, whatever ) food at 10 cents per pound, right now. Today. High calorie, highly nutricous food, for 10 cents per pound. I'll get you 100,000 tons of it. Today, with just a few phone calls.

How are you going to move it to remote Africa? Who's going to pay to transport it? Who's going to fight off the bandits and highjackers? How will you keep it from spoiling?

There aren't even roads or airports in some areas hit hardest with starvation.

There are people starving in the U.S.A. and that should not occur either, but it does, for a whole host of reasons unrelated to production of fuel ethanol.

Think about it.

Blaming ethanol for people starving is like blaming the Russian heat wave for 1200 deaths. If you read the fine print, because it was hot, 1200 people went swimming who didn't know how to swim, or went into the water while drunk and drown. There were 1200 drownings in Russia last month. But the newspaper headline was "Global Warming & Heat Wave kills 1200".

Corn right now, with 12 billion gallons of U.S. ethanol production is about 6 cents a pound. I can get you all you want, right now, today, for 6 cents a pound.

What other food stuff can you buy for 6 cents a pound? What other anything can you buy for 6 cents a pound?
Think about it.

 

1. Ethanol STILL reduces gas mileage.
2. As an American, I don't want to have choices taken away by the government, I want to government to take steps to ensure I have the choice, not the government.

 

I have only two problems with ethanol in my gas. First it reduces my mileage and second, I am forced to use it. In my area of New York State there is no alternative because all gas sold here has that 10% ethanol added to it. I agree. I think there should be a choice?

 

Then that implies you do not understand its purpose.

Do you have the choice to use gasoline with lead?
Do you have the choice to use diesel with high sulfur content?
Do you have the choice to use R-22 in your air-conditioner?

All of these choices were taken away from you, because they are/were bad for the environment. THE SAME APPLIES HERE.

Gasoline is bad for the environment.
E10 is about 30% better ( less bad ) for the environment with only a small ( 3% best to 10% worst case ) reduction in miles per gallon.

So there is a well established environmental benefit, not to include the numerous economic benefits.


Sometimes you need to be a team player.
Sometimes the government is a useful tool to speed up progress.
Ethanol we can do TODAY.
It will take a while to get transporation away from petroleum all together.
Think of your grandchildren.
If you love gasoline, ethanol will make the finite supply last longer.
There is an almost infinate supply of ethanol ( there could be ).

 

Gspman1, OK, OK, OK; you have had your rant… This is a forum about Toyota Camry Hybrid issues. You don’t own one, obviously don’t like them because they don’t burn E85. It’s not a forum about ethanol or Fords or Hondas. Please go post your rants and insults on a Ford site or whatever, and just leave us in peace to discuss TCH issues.