The musty smell part 203903294203
#1
12-30-2008, 04:42 PM
The musty smell part 203903294203
So, I've read as much as I could in previous posts about the nasty musty/moldy smell that sometimes comes blasting into the TCH. I never use recirculate mode. The smell happens primarily in the winter (i.e. heater on) and particularly if I'm driving and it suddenly starts raining or the road is very wet. Sometimes the smell is overpowering enough to require rolling down the windows.
Has anyone found a consistent cause and fix for this? I've seen several posts about turning on the heat with high fan just before parking but that implies issues during the summer when cooling the car with the A/C. That is also a royal pain in the butt for someone who routinely shuttles people in their car. The wife's Prius never has any issue and for that matter neither has any other of the dozen cars I've owned.
Happy New Year!
Has anyone found a consistent cause and fix for this? I've seen several posts about turning on the heat with high fan just before parking but that implies issues during the summer when cooling the car with the A/C. That is also a royal pain in the butt for someone who routinely shuttles people in their car. The wife's Prius never has any issue and for that matter neither has any other of the dozen cars I've owned.
Happy New Year!
#2
12-30-2008, 06:39 PM
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
Couple of questions.
1) When was the last time the cabin filter was changed?
2) Have you ever used a mold cleaner on your system similar to frigi-clean?
1) When was the last time the cabin filter was changed?
2) Have you ever used a mold cleaner on your system similar to frigi-clean?
#3
12-31-2008, 09:01 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
There are several long term solutions:
An EED from Airsept.com
A UV light source mounted inside the HVAC plenum just upstream of the evaporator.
Many Toyota's these days have a C-best option that allows you to disable the A/C TOTALLY & COMPLETELY during the winter months when it will be mostly useless anyway. Your problem centers around the inadvertent use of the A/C system for dehumidification, especually when you use one of the windshield defrost modes.
Once you use the A/C there will ALWAYS remain a thin film of moisture on the 8-10,000 square inches of cooling evaporator surface area, forming a PERFECT habitat for teh growth of the microbes who's "leavings" result in that dirty horrid gym socks odor.
If you park the car under cover when not in use it helps to lower windows slightly to allow the level of humidity to reduce overnight.
Be careful/mindfull of the use of ANY chemicals sprayed into the HVAC plenum are as you will soon be inadvertently breathing those chemicals into your own system.
Google for:
wwest two-layer nippondenso
An EED from Airsept.com
A UV light source mounted inside the HVAC plenum just upstream of the evaporator.
Many Toyota's these days have a C-best option that allows you to disable the A/C TOTALLY & COMPLETELY during the winter months when it will be mostly useless anyway. Your problem centers around the inadvertent use of the A/C system for dehumidification, especually when you use one of the windshield defrost modes.
Once you use the A/C there will ALWAYS remain a thin film of moisture on the 8-10,000 square inches of cooling evaporator surface area, forming a PERFECT habitat for teh growth of the microbes who's "leavings" result in that dirty horrid gym socks odor.
If you park the car under cover when not in use it helps to lower windows slightly to allow the level of humidity to reduce overnight.
Be careful/mindfull of the use of ANY chemicals sprayed into the HVAC plenum are as you will soon be inadvertently breathing those chemicals into your own system.
Google for:
wwest two-layer nippondenso
#4
01-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
There are several long term solutions:
...
Many Toyota's these days have a C-best option that allows you to disable the A/C TOTALLY & COMPLETELY during the winter months when it will be mostly useless anyway. Your problem centers around the inadvertent use of the A/C system for dehumidification, especually when you use one of the windshield defrost modes.
...
...
Many Toyota's these days have a C-best option that allows you to disable the A/C TOTALLY & COMPLETELY during the winter months when it will be mostly useless anyway. Your problem centers around the inadvertent use of the A/C system for dehumidification, especually when you use one of the windshield defrost modes.
...
And fogged-up windows are far more serious a safety issue than a bit of 'funk' when starting out.
One other item for the original poster - if you park under trees, watch out for build-up of leaves and other, smaller stuff in the air intake. Here in FL, from late January to mid March the oaks and pines are spewing pollen, and the oaks drop the little pollen 'flowers' on any car parked under them. These are small enough to get past the mesh on the air intake, and provide a nice little 'compost pile' in the air system. Cleaning out the area under the filter helps. The pollen is also somewhat sticky, so it also goobers up with dust/dirt to make some nasty, sticky goo. On all my previous cars, I've had to do this chore after every pollen season (along with the filter replacement) to avoid the funky smell. Since I got the TCH after last year's pollen season, this year will be my first session of cleaning out the air intake....
#5
01-03-2009, 08:52 AM
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
This website may help you locating the most common car smells www.mycarsmellsbad.com HTML clipbo My car had some nasty smell when I was driving. It was stronger when I rolled down the windows. It turned out to be my break pads were burning just like that website pointed out.
#6
01-03-2009, 03:44 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
This really depends on the climate - in warmer climates, the reduction of effectiveness for defrost/defog cycles can be a serious problem.
Let's "begin" by clearing up the matter of "defrost" vs "Defog" or "demist". I will assume that defrost means removing frozen moisture. "rime ice" from the EXTERIOR surface of the windshield. Yes, some of you may live in a climate wherein frost on the interior surface can be a problem but since that is such a rare circumstance I choose to ignore it.
So, unless someone wants to step up and DENY that, absent manual labor, elbow grease, the application of HEAT is the one and only solution to defrost a windshield, "we" can proceed.
So, now, off to "work".
If we are considering windshield "frost" at initial (cold engine) startup then most systems will apply HEAT, and LOTS of it (HIGH blower) once the engine coolant temperature rises to ~130F and above.
No problem there.
But if you have an instance of windshield frost or icing development once underway, most modern automatic climate control systems are totally unprepared to handle this in solely automatic mode. Once the climate control system has raised the passenger cabin temperature too, or very near, your air temperature setpoint, the activation of the system for exterior defrost functionality will be virtually non-existent.
It will be up to you to raise the temperature setpoint to a higher level and therefore provide HEATING to the windshield. I recommend going to the MAX HEAT level just prior to switching the defrost mode on, then retarding the windshield heating level only after a reversal of the frosting/icing of the windshield has become obvious.
Unless it's pretty cold outside (<40F), the defrost (he means defog/demist) won't be effective in moderate to high humidity without the A/C providing the assist.
Not true, the engine coolant operates above 180F and there is no place on this earth wherein the system cannot provide enough HEAT to be effective at reducing the Rh of the incoming airstream while simultaneous raising the temperature of the interior windshield surface WELL above dewpoint.
Unless your relative humidity levels are < 50, or temps are < 40, you need A/C to defog.
What he really means to say here is that unless the OAT is well above 40F and the Rh above 50% the chances of the A/C being non-functional for dehumidification are substantial.
Plus, as already stated, with that >180F coolant heating available there no NEED for A/C dehumidification in any case.
And fogged-up windows are far more serious a safety issue than a bit of 'funk' when starting out.
One other item for the original poster - if you park under trees, watch out for build-up of leaves and other, smaller stuff in the air intake. Here in FL, from late January to mid March the oaks and pines are spewing pollen, and the oaks drop the little pollen 'flowers' on any car parked under them. These are small enough to get past the mesh on the air intake, and provide a nice little 'compost pile' in the air system. Cleaning out the area under the filter helps. The pollen is also somewhat sticky, so it also goobers up with dust/dirt to make some nasty, sticky goo. On all my previous cars, I've had to do this chore after every pollen season (along with the filter replacement) to avoid the funky smell. Since I got the TCH after last year's pollen season, this year will be my first session of cleaning out the air intake....
Let's "begin" by clearing up the matter of "defrost" vs "Defog" or "demist". I will assume that defrost means removing frozen moisture. "rime ice" from the EXTERIOR surface of the windshield. Yes, some of you may live in a climate wherein frost on the interior surface can be a problem but since that is such a rare circumstance I choose to ignore it.
So, unless someone wants to step up and DENY that, absent manual labor, elbow grease, the application of HEAT is the one and only solution to defrost a windshield, "we" can proceed.
So, now, off to "work".
If we are considering windshield "frost" at initial (cold engine) startup then most systems will apply HEAT, and LOTS of it (HIGH blower) once the engine coolant temperature rises to ~130F and above.
No problem there.
But if you have an instance of windshield frost or icing development once underway, most modern automatic climate control systems are totally unprepared to handle this in solely automatic mode. Once the climate control system has raised the passenger cabin temperature too, or very near, your air temperature setpoint, the activation of the system for exterior defrost functionality will be virtually non-existent.
It will be up to you to raise the temperature setpoint to a higher level and therefore provide HEATING to the windshield. I recommend going to the MAX HEAT level just prior to switching the defrost mode on, then retarding the windshield heating level only after a reversal of the frosting/icing of the windshield has become obvious.
Unless it's pretty cold outside (<40F), the defrost (he means defog/demist) won't be effective in moderate to high humidity without the A/C providing the assist.
Not true, the engine coolant operates above 180F and there is no place on this earth wherein the system cannot provide enough HEAT to be effective at reducing the Rh of the incoming airstream while simultaneous raising the temperature of the interior windshield surface WELL above dewpoint.
Unless your relative humidity levels are < 50, or temps are < 40, you need A/C to defog.
What he really means to say here is that unless the OAT is well above 40F and the Rh above 50% the chances of the A/C being non-functional for dehumidification are substantial.
Plus, as already stated, with that >180F coolant heating available there no NEED for A/C dehumidification in any case.
And fogged-up windows are far more serious a safety issue than a bit of 'funk' when starting out.
One other item for the original poster - if you park under trees, watch out for build-up of leaves and other, smaller stuff in the air intake. Here in FL, from late January to mid March the oaks and pines are spewing pollen, and the oaks drop the little pollen 'flowers' on any car parked under them. These are small enough to get past the mesh on the air intake, and provide a nice little 'compost pile' in the air system. Cleaning out the area under the filter helps. The pollen is also somewhat sticky, so it also goobers up with dust/dirt to make some nasty, sticky goo. On all my previous cars, I've had to do this chore after every pollen season (along with the filter replacement) to avoid the funky smell. Since I got the TCH after last year's pollen season, this year will be my first session of cleaning out the air intake....
And I do not disagree.
But.
That is true only if "the stars are in proper alignment, that is to say "climatic conditions" permitting.
And were it not for the adverse after-effects, not including mould and mildew odors, I would advocate the use of the A/C as an aid in defogging/demisting ALWAYS.
But the adverse after effects are so potentially HAZARDOUS that the best procedure is to NEVER make use of the A/C, modern day automotive A/C, for any purpose other than cooling the passenger cabin.
There are, potentially, fixes to these problems.
A) Modify the A/C control system so the A/C compressor is not activated unless climatic conditions indicate that the level of functionality it will provide is reasonably substantial.
AND...Including.
B) Provide a means for evacuating, to the OUTSIDE or the vehicle, the thin film of moisture remaining on the 8-10,000 square inches of evaporator vane surface area once the compressor has been shut down for 30 minutes or so.
Or...
C) Continously measure the temperature of the interior windshield surface along the RH of the air flowing from the HVAC system and thereby compute the dewpoint of/for the windshield interior surface. If the windshield temperature begins to approach the dewpoint then provide additional/increased HEATING to the windshield interior surface.
D) Along the lines the poster suggests one could, I suppose, purchase a wireless remote display temperature and humidity sensor kit. Then simply not use the A/C unless climatic conditions "suggest" its viability. Once OAT is below ~50F the Rh will need to be abnormally high in order for an automotive A/C to provide any functional level of dehumidification, and even at that only with the lowest possible system blower speed.
Last edited by wwest; 01-03-2009 at 04:30 PM.
#7
01-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Re: The musty smell part 203903294203
The core, base, point that the poster is attempting to make is that the use, CONTRIBUTION, of the A/C as an aid in defogging/demisting the interior surface of the windshield can be substantial, not to mention as a aid, simultaneously, to human comfort.
And I do not disagree.
But.
That is true only if "the stars are in proper alignment, that is to say "climatic conditions" permitting.
And were it not for the adverse after-effects, not including mould and mildew odors, I would advocate the use of the A/C as an aid in defogging/demisting ALWAYS.
But the adverse after effects are so potentially HAZARDOUS that the best procedure is to NEVER make use of the A/C, modern day automotive A/C, for any purpose other than cooling the passenger cabin.
There are, potentially, fixes to these problems.
A) Modify the A/C control system so the A/C compressor is not activated unless climatic conditions indicate that the level of functionality it will provide is reasonably substantial.
Toyota already does that. A/C cycles only at air temps > 40F. For cost reason, there is no humidity sensor, which may help.
AND...Including.
B) Provide a means for evacuating, to the OUTSIDE or the vehicle, the thin film of moisture remaining on the 8-10,000 square inches of evaporator vane surface area once the compressor has been shut down for 30 minutes or so.
That would be cool. Run the fan for 5 min or so after shutdown. Might freak the Luddites into warranty claims (my A/C won't shut off), even with OM instructions to the contrary.
Or...
C) Continuously measure the temperature of the interior windshield surface along the RH of the air flowing from the HVAC system and thereby compute the dew point of/for the windshield interior surface. If the windshield temperature begins to approach the dew point then provide additional/increased HEATING to the windshield interior surface.
Keeping the air flow over the windows at a temp above the glass surface dew point is critical. You don't have to measure the RH directly - measuiring the fogging will serve as an adequate proxy, and is much cheaper to implement. Higher air temps or lower RH of the air will both do the same thing. Unless one removes the outer layers of winter clothes in the car, a too-high temp is a comfort issue, and a potential hypothermia issue (sweat in the car, freeze when you leave it).
D) Along the lines the poster suggests one could, I suppose, purchase a wireless remote display temperature and humidity sensor kit. Then simply not use the A/C unless climatic conditions "suggest" its viability. Once OAT is below ~50F the Rh will need to be abnormally high in order for an automotive A/C to provide any functional level of dehumidification, and even at that only with the lowest possible system blower speed.
The TCH already has a outside air temp display. The RH of cabin air is self-evident - you see windows fogging up, and as I indicated above, could be measured cheaply in the same way as the rain sensors work. Another wild card in this equation is the recirc button setting. If the air is taken in from the outside (and thus cold), the add-heat-only approach will work if the outside temps is cold, as you explained. If the area you're driving through stinks (see Houston or NJ turnpike around the refineries or Ruskin, FL around the phosphate plants), the recirc button will make cabin air dehumidification critical - your breathing will add a substantial amount of moisture. Adding too much heat will make the car uncomfortable.
And I do not disagree.
But.
That is true only if "the stars are in proper alignment, that is to say "climatic conditions" permitting.
And were it not for the adverse after-effects, not including mould and mildew odors, I would advocate the use of the A/C as an aid in defogging/demisting ALWAYS.
But the adverse after effects are so potentially HAZARDOUS that the best procedure is to NEVER make use of the A/C, modern day automotive A/C, for any purpose other than cooling the passenger cabin.
There are, potentially, fixes to these problems.
A) Modify the A/C control system so the A/C compressor is not activated unless climatic conditions indicate that the level of functionality it will provide is reasonably substantial.
Toyota already does that. A/C cycles only at air temps > 40F. For cost reason, there is no humidity sensor, which may help.
AND...Including.
B) Provide a means for evacuating, to the OUTSIDE or the vehicle, the thin film of moisture remaining on the 8-10,000 square inches of evaporator vane surface area once the compressor has been shut down for 30 minutes or so.
That would be cool. Run the fan for 5 min or so after shutdown. Might freak the Luddites into warranty claims (my A/C won't shut off), even with OM instructions to the contrary.
Or...
C) Continuously measure the temperature of the interior windshield surface along the RH of the air flowing from the HVAC system and thereby compute the dew point of/for the windshield interior surface. If the windshield temperature begins to approach the dew point then provide additional/increased HEATING to the windshield interior surface.
Keeping the air flow over the windows at a temp above the glass surface dew point is critical. You don't have to measure the RH directly - measuiring the fogging will serve as an adequate proxy, and is much cheaper to implement. Higher air temps or lower RH of the air will both do the same thing. Unless one removes the outer layers of winter clothes in the car, a too-high temp is a comfort issue, and a potential hypothermia issue (sweat in the car, freeze when you leave it).
D) Along the lines the poster suggests one could, I suppose, purchase a wireless remote display temperature and humidity sensor kit. Then simply not use the A/C unless climatic conditions "suggest" its viability. Once OAT is below ~50F the Rh will need to be abnormally high in order for an automotive A/C to provide any functional level of dehumidification, and even at that only with the lowest possible system blower speed.
The TCH already has a outside air temp display. The RH of cabin air is self-evident - you see windows fogging up, and as I indicated above, could be measured cheaply in the same way as the rain sensors work. Another wild card in this equation is the recirc button setting. If the air is taken in from the outside (and thus cold), the add-heat-only approach will work if the outside temps is cold, as you explained. If the area you're driving through stinks (see Houston or NJ turnpike around the refineries or Ruskin, FL around the phosphate plants), the recirc button will make cabin air dehumidification critical - your breathing will add a substantial amount of moisture. Adding too much heat will make the car uncomfortable.
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