Media about Toyota UA
#12
08-04-2010, 06:16 PM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
It might be more than a hundred years before we know the real damage from the gulf oil spill.
#15
08-11-2010, 05:10 AM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
Source wsj.com
...but not the entire time, which would IMHO be the expected behavior of an 'out of control vehicle', right?
One case
I'm not an expert, but statistically speaking, it's safe to say that Toyota was not at fault.
You think the administration and congress will apologize to the company?
The last line of the article...
Huh? Looks like driver error to me.
If you had unintended acceleration, wouldn't you apply the brakes forcefully for the entire time the car was 'racing'?
The statistics indicate that the overwhelming majority of the 58 cars studied show that they hadn't been forcefully and continually applied.
Oh, that's right...Stupak's from Michigan.
Never mind
U.S. Study Points to Driver Error in Many Toyota Crashes
By MIKE RAMSEY And JOSH MITCHELL
Five months into an investigation of safety issues involving Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles, U.S. safety officials have yet to identify any new defects beyond those reported by the car maker itself.
And in more than half of the crashes blamed on sudden acceleration analyzed by the government, data from the vehicles' "black boxes" show the driver was not stepping on the brake at the time of the accident—indicating that driver error may have been at fault.
Those were the findings that U.S. Transportation Department officials disclosed Tuesday to members of Congress, offering the first significant details of the government's ongoing investigation into Toyota's recall of more than 8.5 million vehicles globally since last fall.
Officials stressed that their investigation continues and may take months to complete. But the data, at least for now, support Toyota's assertion that electronic defects in its cars aren't behind the incidents.
Experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration examined 58 vehicles involved in sudden-acceleration reports and found data in 35 of them showed the brakes weren't applied at the time of the crash. Data from nine other vehicles showed the brakes were used only in the last moment before impact.
...
By MIKE RAMSEY And JOSH MITCHELL
Five months into an investigation of safety issues involving Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles, U.S. safety officials have yet to identify any new defects beyond those reported by the car maker itself.
And in more than half of the crashes blamed on sudden acceleration analyzed by the government, data from the vehicles' "black boxes" show the driver was not stepping on the brake at the time of the accident—indicating that driver error may have been at fault.
Those were the findings that U.S. Transportation Department officials disclosed Tuesday to members of Congress, offering the first significant details of the government's ongoing investigation into Toyota's recall of more than 8.5 million vehicles globally since last fall.
Officials stressed that their investigation continues and may take months to complete. But the data, at least for now, support Toyota's assertion that electronic defects in its cars aren't behind the incidents.
Experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration examined 58 vehicles involved in sudden-acceleration reports and found data in 35 of them showed the brakes weren't applied at the time of the crash. Data from nine other vehicles showed the brakes were used only in the last moment before impact.
...
...In five of the 58 vehicles NHTSA examined, the data recorders didn't record the conditions in the car at the time of the crash. Black boxes from five additional vehicles showed the brakes were applied early in the incident or in the middle of the event....
In one case both the brake and accelerator pedals were depressed. Investigators found one case of sustained braking and concluded the floor mat likely trapped the gas pedal.
I'm not an expert, but statistically speaking, it's safe to say that Toyota was not at fault.
You think the administration and congress will apologize to the company?
The last line of the article...
...Rep. Bart Stupak (D., Mich.), chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight panel, which held hearings on the Toyota recalls this year, said the report resolved few questions about the sources of the Toyota crashes
If you had unintended acceleration, wouldn't you apply the brakes forcefully for the entire time the car was 'racing'?
The statistics indicate that the overwhelming majority of the 58 cars studied show that they hadn't been forcefully and continually applied.
Oh, that's right...Stupak's from Michigan.
Never mind
Last edited by haroldo; 08-11-2010 at 06:13 AM.
#16
08-11-2010, 11:31 AM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
haroldo,
Actually, you would expect the black box to show a LOT of things if someone was trying to control a runaway car.
In addition to the brakes being applied with maximum effort, it should show the transmission being shifted into neutral, the engine button being pushed (in an attempt to shut everything down) and the emergency brake being applied.
If this were an aircraft investigation, the conclusion would be called....."pilot error."
Actually, you would expect the black box to show a LOT of things if someone was trying to control a runaway car.
In addition to the brakes being applied with maximum effort, it should show the transmission being shifted into neutral, the engine button being pushed (in an attempt to shut everything down) and the emergency brake being applied.
If this were an aircraft investigation, the conclusion would be called....."pilot error."
#17
08-11-2010, 06:01 PM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
Do you not remember how long it took Boeing to discover the design flaw in the 737 Rudder control hydraulic valve..?? Colorado Springs(??) 737 "nose-in" was atributed to wind burst until much the same thing occurred to another 737 in Pittsburg in '94.
It was a LONG time even after the second crash before Boeing was able to pinpoint the design flaw.
It was a LONG time even after the second crash before Boeing was able to pinpoint the design flaw.
#18
08-12-2010, 07:32 AM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
Willard,
You brought up a good point about design flaws in aircraft. The design flaw in the DC-10 and the crash in Idaho a few years ago resulted in that aircraft being relegated to cargo duty or being retired (there are alot of them sitting mothballed in the desert if you know anyone that wants a good deal....).
However, investigating an aircraft crash is a lot more complicated than tracing down flaws in a car or truck. For one thing, with the exception of the crash in California (Lexus) most of the wreckage is completely intact in the Toyota cases, and there are literally thousands of cars still unharmed and available for extensive testing.
Also, weather can be a factor that hides a design flaw in an aircraft. My experience in the Air Force, after sitting in more accident investigation summaries than I ever wanted to, is that aircraft usually crash due to a set of unfortunate circumstances that come together at the wrong time rather than one big singular cause.
Even thought the point you brought up isn't completely relevant to the Toyota situation, it does clearly point out the need for additional research even though you seem to have found a cause or contributing factor. Good scientists always like to revalidate their results.....just to be sure.
Joe
You brought up a good point about design flaws in aircraft. The design flaw in the DC-10 and the crash in Idaho a few years ago resulted in that aircraft being relegated to cargo duty or being retired (there are alot of them sitting mothballed in the desert if you know anyone that wants a good deal....).
However, investigating an aircraft crash is a lot more complicated than tracing down flaws in a car or truck. For one thing, with the exception of the crash in California (Lexus) most of the wreckage is completely intact in the Toyota cases, and there are literally thousands of cars still unharmed and available for extensive testing.
Also, weather can be a factor that hides a design flaw in an aircraft. My experience in the Air Force, after sitting in more accident investigation summaries than I ever wanted to, is that aircraft usually crash due to a set of unfortunate circumstances that come together at the wrong time rather than one big singular cause.
Even thought the point you brought up isn't completely relevant to the Toyota situation, it does clearly point out the need for additional research even though you seem to have found a cause or contributing factor. Good scientists always like to revalidate their results.....just to be sure.
Joe
#19
08-12-2010, 07:44 AM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
there is a difference between a plane crash and a malfunctioning car. IIRC the issue with the 737 was that while the pilot (and the sensor) wanted the rudder right, it actually turned left because the valve froze and did the opposite of what was asked of it.
But in a 'runaway' car even if the black box was incorrect, if the brakes are applied there should be some physical evidence of that. There has been no writeup about people trying to put car in neutral and it not working. While in CA they said that the CHP officer tried turning the car off, but we don't know if he held it long enough, or just quickly pressed it.
On the flip side we have had reports of UA in ALL makes, with both physical and drive by wire systems. Some people do admit to driver error, some say they don't know what happened and a few others claim UA.
Looking at past UA witch hunts it has always come down to an issue of driver error. Why should this be any different? Occam's razor anyone?
But in a 'runaway' car even if the black box was incorrect, if the brakes are applied there should be some physical evidence of that. There has been no writeup about people trying to put car in neutral and it not working. While in CA they said that the CHP officer tried turning the car off, but we don't know if he held it long enough, or just quickly pressed it.
On the flip side we have had reports of UA in ALL makes, with both physical and drive by wire systems. Some people do admit to driver error, some say they don't know what happened and a few others claim UA.
Looking at past UA witch hunts it has always come down to an issue of driver error. Why should this be any different? Occam's razor anyone?
#20
08-12-2010, 09:33 AM
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Re: Media about Toyota UA
there is a difference between a plane crash and a malfunctioning car. IIRC the issue with the 737 was that while the pilot (and the sensor) wanted the rudder right, it actually turned left because the valve froze and did the opposite of what was asked of it.
But in a 'runaway' car even if the black box was incorrect, if the brakes are applied there should be some physical evidence of that.
In both the Saylor and the Sikes case there was an abundance of evidence indicating the brakes had been heaviliy applied/used. Mrs. Smith of TN stated that she even applied the e-brake.
There has been no writeup about people trying to put car in neutral and it not working.
Mrs. Smith testified to exactly that, even putting the shifter into "R" with no satisfactory results.
While in CA they said that the CHP officer tried turning the car off, but we don't know if he held it long enough, or just quickly pressed it.
Some of us find it a little hard to believe that a 20 year veteran of the CHP wouldn't have tried everything imaginable in that 20 minute wild ride.
On the flip side we have had reports of UA in ALL makes, with both physical and drive by wire systems. Some people do admit to driver error, some say they don't know what happened and a few others claim UA.
Looking at past UA witch hunts it has always come down to an issue of driver error. Why should this be any different? Occam's razor anyone?
But in a 'runaway' car even if the black box was incorrect, if the brakes are applied there should be some physical evidence of that.
In both the Saylor and the Sikes case there was an abundance of evidence indicating the brakes had been heaviliy applied/used. Mrs. Smith of TN stated that she even applied the e-brake.
There has been no writeup about people trying to put car in neutral and it not working.
Mrs. Smith testified to exactly that, even putting the shifter into "R" with no satisfactory results.
While in CA they said that the CHP officer tried turning the car off, but we don't know if he held it long enough, or just quickly pressed it.
Some of us find it a little hard to believe that a 20 year veteran of the CHP wouldn't have tried everything imaginable in that 20 minute wild ride.
On the flip side we have had reports of UA in ALL makes, with both physical and drive by wire systems. Some people do admit to driver error, some say they don't know what happened and a few others claim UA.
Looking at past UA witch hunts it has always come down to an issue of driver error. Why should this be any different? Occam's razor anyone?
