This is his answer

 

How much money have you saved over a $10k Toyota Echo?

Exactly.

 

In the case of the MMH this is not a true statement.

MM 4 cyl
Horsepower = 153

MM V6
Horsepower = 200

MMH
Horsepower = 155.

MMH has nearly idential HP to the 4 cyl which is why your comparison doesn't work.

 

Please stick to your insistance of comparing apples to apples. You are flip-floping from a hybrid/non-hybrid coparison of two closely similar vehicles to the Insight vs. the vehicle of your choice.

I had a 1988 CRX HF (paid $12K at the time) - not a Toyota Echo. It's neither a Honda nor does it perform as efficiently as the CRX HF.

It was replaced by a 2000 Honda Insight - very similar to what I drove other than it has a hybrid powerplant. In fact, there is nothing more similar to the 5-speed Insight than the CRX HF.

Besides, in one of thoes rare posts that you have revealed what you drive (or drove) - it's nothing like a Toyota Echo.

 

My point is that if you are on a budget, you don't buy a hybrid, you buy something much less expensive. If you're smart, it isn't an SUV, but rather something akin to an Echo or a small Hyundai.

What does my car have to do with this discussion anyway? The discussion is about whether hybrids pay off. I think an Echo is a fair comparison to your car.

 

The discussion was a non-hybrid vs. a hybrid, and somehow instead of comparing two very similar Hondas (less the powerplant) - you chose Honda vs. a Toyota? Stop making your point of view by twisting things, please.

Most people here have or are considering hybrids. You did mention driving a performance vehicle - does not sound like a Toyota Echo, so your limited budget arguement sounds dubious.

One thing about cancer cells and agitators - they go on forever...

 

You know, this whole thread is missing one important point and is also getting at one of my pet peeves. Getting all caught up in comparing hybrids to the closest non-hybrid equivalent is only meaningful if that's the choice you are actually making as a buyer. Nobody spends this much time cost-justifying a Lexus over a Camary because you can't. You don't get a Lexus because you need one, you get a Lexus because you want one and are willing to pay for it. No one talks about return on investment or getting your money back from leather vs. cloth seats, wood grain vs. plastic, or any other option.

Comparing a hybrid to any bargain-basement econo-car is pointless, unless you are actually going to choose between the two. For me, I'm not driving 1000 miles a month in an Echo (no offense to those that do, that's just not a car I'd be comfortable spending 2 hrs a day in). Given the $11,000 price difference between that Echo and my HCH, I'm paying a lot for that decision. But then again, I work hard for my money and I'll drive what I choose to pay for. The HCH was worth every penny, and I could care less about comparisons to an EX or any other car. The price met the value I get. Sure, I'm not going to recover that 11K. But that's not the point. The point is the buying decision you make relative to other cars you'd actually own. I would not have bought a Civic EX. I bought the hybrid because it was a hybrid. There are a lot more comfortable cars out there to commute in. I made the concession because of all the OTHER benefits, besides mileage, you get from a hybrid.

A hybrid owner does not need to justify themselves for purchasing a hybrid over any other car. For me, it was the right car at an agreeable price that met my economic, commuting, and lifestyle needs. I'm not going to listen to any lectures about hybrids not being "worth it", because the meaure of "worth it" extends way beyond simple MPG and purchase cost calculations. That's the reason why everyone isn't driving around in a Echo in the first place.

 

I don't think those numbers are accurate as I believe that the numbers you have quoted are "engine horsepower" and do not include the HP and Torque provided by the electric motor. Also, as we aren't talking about a race car, real-life acceleration such as passing, merging, etc are more important than straight HP numbers....and that is where the electric assist also helps.

Furthermore, when we are talking about comparing vehicles, we should compare vehicles that an actual buyer is considering between. I was either going to buy the V6 or the Hybrid. The 4cyl or a Toyota Echo were not an option. Thus, the Hybrid premium is justified in this case.

 

Well then why are we stopping with the Toyota Echo???? Why not compare every vehicle to a Honda Scooter. You can get a used one for a couple thousand $'s and get about 6070 mpg.....why would anyone buy an Echo when they can save alot more money buying a scooter?

Apples to Apples.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment at all. The point I was simply making is that the reason the media continually discusses a hybrids cost vs gas savings is because they have been marketed as gas savers. From that limited point of view, you need to own your vehicle for an extended period of time for it to pay for itself in gas. If the ONLY reason you are buying a hybrid is for gas savings there are better more economical choices. What the media has failed to understand is that Hybrid owner don't purchase them simple to save gas. There are numerous other motivations behind our purchases.

I wouldn't trade my HiHy for the non-hybrid versions regardless of the "cost savings".