Sorry Martin, but that just doesn't seem to be the reality from where I'm sitting. I know of 3 people who have returned the VUE GL and gotten their money back, at least one of which used false advertising as their basis for the return, having been promised by the salesman FEH comparable FE. It doesn't matter how corporate builds them, if they're being sold by salesmen incorrectly, which they seem to be, then you're looking at a potential disaster.

Then, you have the intensely dissatisfied person who just bought his VUE GL. 2 months later, you announce that you're coming out with the 2 mode. Had he known, and waited, he could've waited and gotten the 2 mode (and been happy with his purchase) rather then the GL he has now, which he's disapointed in. That doesn't help business, and seems like a reverse bait and switch. "Here's our hybrid! Now that you suckers bought one, here's our much better one that we were hanging on to! Nyah Nyah!" That's why I said it can seem like a slap in the face to current owners.

Yes, I fully understand that GM's scheme is to offer 2 versions of their hybrids, 1 that offers minor FE improvements for cheap, and 1 that offers substantial improvements for more of an investment. But since they're playing three card monte with the consumers (from the consumers point of view [slight pun intended]) with what they're doing with their hybrids, it seems like a botched consumer relations issue. Then again, GM does seem to be pretty good at that. Look at their EV1 advertising and awareness campaign.

I also realize that the number of people quite interested right off the bat to the hybrid technology may not be that many, but that doesn't make them immaterial.

Lastly, not to detract from any of the previous points (Since I view them as being slightly more important), but why is it (All prices according to Edmunds) that the BAS technology is about 2K on the VUE GL as the "cheap hybrid alternative" when the difference between a TCH and a standard Camry equally optioned out is a $3,100 difference and a FEH and Escape equally equipped is a $3,700 difference? When you're talking about a $30,000 vehicle, 1+K isn't that much of a difference for a 45+% in Fuel Economy, something I think every VUE GL person would be happy to pay for that kind of FE boost instead of the marginal difference they're getting. Or is the VUE 2 mode hybridization going to be far costlier then the difference between base and hybrid model that every one of the competitors attach as the hybrid premium?

 

I think if you do your math correctly, the optioned out Camry is a lot closer to the TCH price. Keep in mind there are options on the TCH that can't be gotten on the CE, so you need to price it as a LE, and even then I don't think the traction control is the same as the VSC.

Either way GM is way overcharging for that joke of a BAS. It should be standard equipment on all vehicles should thoug, and then it won't be a joke, but more of an way future cars should go. One step at a time, but to call it a hybrid technology is just a slap in that face to the true hybrid technology that produces good results.

 

I'm not quite sure where you guys are getting your numbers, but (for example) the difference in base price of a Ford Escape vs. the Ford Escape hybrid is not $3700.

From the Ford website (MSRP):

Ford Escape: $20875 FWD Auto
Ford Escape Hybrid: $26320 FWD Auto

That's a difference of $5445.

For the VUE GL vs. VUE:

VUE: $19805 FWD Auto
VUE GL: $22995 FWD Auto

That's a difference of $3190. That's not even subtracting out the cost of the new 2.4L Ecotec over the 2.2L Ecotec.

The BAS system costs significantly less, mostly due to not having as much battery power (still the most expensive component of a hybrid system). Thoretically, you could improve a BAS system by putting in more batteries and a more powerful electric motor. But then you're getting to the price point of a normal two-mode hybrid architecture.

That additional $2500 in vehicle cost is not a small amount, let alone the difference in price between the view and the Escape. Even if you don't include interest, that comes out to about an additional $35 dollars a month on a 72 month loan. That right there could be a deal breaker for most people on a budget.

GM saw a hole in the market. The early rumors on the 2008 two-mode puts the cost of the VUE up another $3000-$5000. That's out of my price range, and the price range of all th rest of us mere hybrid peasants. So even if they had released it now, I could not have afforded it.

From GM point of view, they took on a strategy to test the waters on a couple of fronts. First is to see if people would be willing to pay a little more for a modest increase in fuel economy. If this pays off, then this may become standard equipment on all lines. Next, bring out a full two-mode hybrid. If that ends up failing, then at least you've got a good revenue stream coming from the BAS vehicles to take up the slack.

They fill the niche, while at the same time insuring against losses. Standard business strategy if you ask me.

All hybrid snobbery aside, I believe anything that gets people driving hybrids (even ones such as the GL) is a good thing overall. The average family will reduce fuel consumption by 100 gallons per year in a GL. If a million families had one of these, we would be saving 100 million gallons of fuel per year. That's pretty good.

According to the stats on this site, my GL is performing quite well compared to the rest out there. I have yet to refuel, but "eyeballing" it I'm getting between 28-29 MPG with the engine not even broken in yet.

As for others reporting low mileages, I've discussed this issue before. The VUE GL is geared more towards those who do a decent amount of freeway driving vs. city driving. If you're doing a fair amount of city driving (frequent start-stops, low speeds), what will end up happening (if you try to keep that littl green light on all the time) is the battery drains as it doesn't have enough opportunities to recharge. When it does get enough juice it will be expended quickly and then the cycle starts over again. So not only are spending a lot of time when the engine is most inefficient, but your also expending fuel to build the battery back up.

This is an inherent problem with all hybrids, though with two-mode hybrids it will take a lot longer to get into this state (and thus, is more likley not to occur). You can always drive them in such a way that the battery drains, leaving you with just the ICE to keep you going.

Regardless, the VUE GL was not targeted at the all city/suburban crowd. The VUE was targeted more for those that do more like 50/50 city/freeway or greater. This is where the GL shows it's fuel economy. For example my typical driving routine is roughly 50/50 and I have no problems achieving good MPG.

If you do primarily city driving, I would recommend against getting the VUE GL. However, if you're more balanced driver, the GL is a decent choice.

As far as recouping the premium, forget it. At least on SUV hybrids that aren't "plug-ins". With the GL you could possibly recoup the premium in 6 years. With the escape and others, it's a little longer (8-10 years). And then, of course, is the eventual battery replacement. However, in this case the GL has the advantage.

My $.02.

~X~

 

Welcome,
So what does the BAS contribute in a highway vehicle? Where is the hybrid fuel savings?

Bob Wilson

 

Did you read my post? Edmunds.com. But let's look at your numbers. How exactly did you build and compare them? I used actual invoices from a dealer. Looking online, I'm a bit puzzled at how you arrived at your prices.


And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

(In bold on purpose) You have yet to refuel, you have no fuel economy display [remember the VUE doesn't have one], and yet you're guessing you're getting between 28 to 29 MPGs? How? Every other user on GH is getting significantly less, 10 MPGs less in some cases! Yet you're magically, without refuelling, without a guage, guessing such high numbers on your first tank?

How?





Yet others do. No other VUE driver is getting close to the EPA FE here or on other boards. Why is your VUE so unique?


Okay, at this point, you've had one post. You defend the VUE. You cite what I see as a logical impossiblility (in bold) You're now advertising for it. How are you not a plant? Or are you willing to admit that you are?

LOL, you're joking right? My 'break even' point is in the next few months, a little over 2 years of ownership. Others aren't much behind me. And this isn't just for the FEH either. HiHy owners aren't' that far behind either. At least for myself and 2 others here, this is easilly provable. You have every mile I've driven logged here, and I can provide every fuel price for each time. Hopefully even you can't call that a falsehood. As to the Batteries, it's unlikely that any FEH owner will ever have to pay for battery replacement.

Given the VUE's real world economy (From apparantly everyone but you), they will have the longer time to recoup the premium, rivialing even the RX400H owners.



You'll forgive my candor, but shouldn't that read, GM Spokesperson? Seriously, though I may be wrong, given this is your innagural post and you seem to state an impossibility, then try to advertise the VUE. I'm going to cast doubt on your "reality" and your purpose here. If you are just an enthusiastic VUE owner, then I apologize if my stance is a bit too predatory and aggressive for you, I don't mean to disuade you from posting here, but given the circumstances, you're not exactly looking like a casual owner. This may seem like circumstantial evidence, but I noticed something. You didn't post first in the VUE forums, where the users are debating, sharing, and complaining about FE, or giving praise. You didn't post first in the Introductions forum. You posted first here, in response to my critques of the VUE. But it's more then that, isn't it? It's the language of your post. No, not that you advertise the VUE after citing some research against the other hybrid "premiums", but that you use the phrase, VUE GL. Oh, it isn't much, is it? Two little words. VUE GL. Yet, out of all the owner posters on every board, it's the VUE, or GL. Only one other person calls it the VUE GL. Martinjlm. A GM employee. Oh, sure, you could've picked up the nomenclature from him, or just shared that little quirk, but I find little things like that to be quite telling about a person.


I don't ask anyone else to believe either of us, as I think it should be up to everyone who reads this to come to their own conclusions, but take a long look at what he said, and how he said it, I would hope everyone would understand my questions and why I'm asking them.

 

Snipped from a post by Xyrus
According to the stats on this site, my GL is performing quite well compared to the rest out there. I have yet to refuel, but "eyeballing" it I'm getting between 28-29 MPG with the engine not even broken in yet.

I'm assuming that this is according to the information available in the Driver Information Center that displays "Average MPG" or "Instantaneous MPG".

Either way, probably not a super reliable way to estimate F/E, but close enough for government work

FWIW: I've driven several VUE GLs over the past few months and have gotten anywhere from low 20s (driving like I normally drive) to just a smidge under 30 (actually paying attention to the DIC). It depends a lot on where and how you drive. Since I drive a lot on I-696 (AKA the Michigan Autobahn), and Woodward Ave (think "Dream Cruise") and Telegraph Road (Autobahn with stoplights) I typically get lower mileage than most.

Peace,

Martin

 

Depends on how you do the math. As with most hybrids, comparing the base hybrid model to the base base model is not a direct comparison. If you compare a 4 cyl VUE automatic with a VGL, you'd have to account for things like ABS, Traction Control, Alloy Wheels and other things that are optional on the base vehicle but standard on the VGL. Once you do that, the difference in sticker price is somewhere around $1,600.

If you compare the difference in fuel economy (based on mfg supplied EPA estimates for hybrid and base models) and compute fuel dollars saved for VGL, FEH, and HH for example, you save about $250 - 300 a year with VGL over bas VUE (based on driving 15K miles a year, assuming gas at $2.50 a gallon, and $3 a gallon).

Using the same miles driven and gas prices you save about $440 - 530 a year with FEH over 4 cylinder automatic Escape.

Using the same miles driven and gas prices you save about $430 - 520 a year with HH over a Highlander V6.

At a $1,600 option price, it takes VGL 5.1 - 6.2 years to pay back. I don't know what the FEH option price is over similarly equipped Escape 4 cylinder auto, or HH over a V6 equipped Highlander, but the hybrid option on Escape would need to be priced at $2,733 to achieve the same 5.1 - 6.2 year payback. The option on Highlander would need to be priced at $2,673.

If you change the gas price assumptions or the miles per year driving assumption you can obviously shift the payback length, but the price -to -price relationship stays about the same. Paying $1,600 for a BAS option on VUE should net approximately the same payback profile as paying $2,733 for hybrid option on Escape or $2,673 for a hybrid option on Highlander. If the hybrid options on Escape or Highlander are priced higher than that, the math says the VUE pays of faster. Now, obviously this is a function to function comparison and does not include value added for hybrid status gages, etc. This is just looking at how long it takes to pay back each hybrid option, neutralizing for effect of fuel price and miles driven.

Peace,

Martin

 

Hi Martin,

When I took one out for a test drive, the sales person didn't tell me about this and sad to say, I didn't think to ask. It was not readily apparent in my test (now I have to go back and do another one.)

Bob Wilson

 

All the GM cars I have driven recently (rentals...last time a Pontiac G6) have had the fuel consumption display buried in the radio. Maybe that's where it is in the Vue?

 

I believe you misread (or misunderstood) what I wrote. I said the VUE wasn't necssarily targeted at the mostly/all city driver crowd. It was targeted more at the drivers who do a balance of both. I don't belive that there is any argument that a two mode will easily perform much better in city driving conditions.

The BAS system contributes on the highway when you need a boost of acceleration or for maintaining speed.

~X~