Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
#31
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Originally Posted by Hondasucks
But how did the dealer determin the battery capacity?????
a 12V starter battery
100% - 12.7V
90% - 12.6V
80% - 12.5V
...
10% - 11.6%
0% - <11.6%
#32
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Originally Posted by Sledge
Voltage. Charge the battery until it's "full", then put a tester across a battery's terminals and measure. For example:
a 12V starter battery
100% - 12.7V
90% - 12.6V
80% - 12.5V
...
10% - 11.6%
0% - <11.6%
a 12V starter battery
100% - 12.7V
90% - 12.6V
80% - 12.5V
...
10% - 11.6%
0% - <11.6%
#33
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
That was just an example. Just trying to show that at a certain voltage (11.6V for a lead acid battery) it is considered drained or incapable of holding a charge. You can do the same thing with the NiMH pack. Your voltages will be different of course, but you can still get an idea of capacity.
Last edited by Sledge; 03-09-2006 at 11:55 AM.
#34
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
As some here know I am in the business. I sold the first Gen1 in our area in 2001 and possibly the first or one of the first Gen2's as well. Last Nov, after a 100 sales or so, I also put my money where my mouth was and traded a 2000 Camry for a 2005 Prius.
Depreciation. It is related to one thing only. The current auction values in a given region. The auction values depend on geography, population and supply. In WY and MT there is little demand or interest in hybrids. In SoCal, DC, NE there is a massive demand. The best way to evaluate depreciation is look at a purely impartial source like the Mannheim Auction summary for a given vehicle with certain miles, age, equipment and condition. If you owned a 2001 Gen1 Prius w/ 75K mi on it right now and wanted cash for it right now you'd get about $8000 at auction. It originally cost about $21500. This is the true market value of such a vehicle as of today on the EC. Your depreciation is $13500 over 5 years.
This is the easiest thing for anyone to do who is in the auto business. Why CR didn't use this to verify their numbers is beyond me.
Oh, btw, a 2001 Camry LE with similar miles, equipment, etc ( which also sold for ~$20000 in that year ) is now worth about $6800 or ~ $13200 depreciation.
Depreciation. It is related to one thing only. The current auction values in a given region. The auction values depend on geography, population and supply. In WY and MT there is little demand or interest in hybrids. In SoCal, DC, NE there is a massive demand. The best way to evaluate depreciation is look at a purely impartial source like the Mannheim Auction summary for a given vehicle with certain miles, age, equipment and condition. If you owned a 2001 Gen1 Prius w/ 75K mi on it right now and wanted cash for it right now you'd get about $8000 at auction. It originally cost about $21500. This is the true market value of such a vehicle as of today on the EC. Your depreciation is $13500 over 5 years.
This is the easiest thing for anyone to do who is in the auto business. Why CR didn't use this to verify their numbers is beyond me.
Oh, btw, a 2001 Camry LE with similar miles, equipment, etc ( which also sold for ~$20000 in that year ) is now worth about $6800 or ~ $13200 depreciation.
Last edited by kdhspyder; 03-09-2006 at 03:55 PM.
#35
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Hi Bob,
I see Mannheim is open only to dealers. Are there dealers who for a modest fee will work Mannheim for an individual?
For example, I perfer used cars to minimize the first year depreciation loss. We might be interested in a second hybrid next year and would be happy to travel to WY or MT or any other state that has a good deal on a hybrid.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
Originally Posted by kdhspyder
. . . In WY and MT there is little demand or interest in hybrids. In SoCal, DC, NE there is a massive demand. The best way to evaluate depreciation is look at a purely impartial source like the Mannheim Auction summary for a given vehicle with certain miles, age, equipment and condition. . . .
For example, I perfer used cars to minimize the first year depreciation loss. We might be interested in a second hybrid next year and would be happy to travel to WY or MT or any other state that has a good deal on a hybrid.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
#36
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Bob,
My wife was born and raised in Lancaster County, PA - about 10 minutes from Manheim, PA (where their first auction is - I think they now own auctions all over the country). So with those connections you'd figure she would know somebody who would have access to the auctions on a "personal" level. Well - no such luck. That said - there are a number of small car dealers around the auctions that will act as "buyers representative" at the auctions and buy for cars for you. My mom actually used one last year - but she got pretty much a lemon of a car and was stuck with it (as she signed a contract telling them what to buy and in what condition - apparently the condition part is "in the eye of the beholder"). I think she paid like $750 or something above what the auction price was. Good luck in your search.
Eric
My wife was born and raised in Lancaster County, PA - about 10 minutes from Manheim, PA (where their first auction is - I think they now own auctions all over the country). So with those connections you'd figure she would know somebody who would have access to the auctions on a "personal" level. Well - no such luck. That said - there are a number of small car dealers around the auctions that will act as "buyers representative" at the auctions and buy for cars for you. My mom actually used one last year - but she got pretty much a lemon of a car and was stuck with it (as she signed a contract telling them what to buy and in what condition - apparently the condition part is "in the eye of the beholder"). I think she paid like $750 or something above what the auction price was. Good luck in your search.
Eric
#37
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Originally Posted by williaea
Bob,
My wife was born and raised in Lancaster County, PA - about 10 minutes from Manheim, PA (where their first auction is - I think they now own auctions all over the country). So with those connections you'd figure she would know somebody who would have access to the auctions on a "personal" level. Well - no such luck. That said - there are a number of small car dealers around the auctions that will act as "buyers representative" at the auctions and buy for cars for you. My mom actually used one last year - but she got pretty much a lemon of a car and was stuck with it (as she signed a contract telling them what to buy and in what condition - apparently the condition part is "in the eye of the beholder"). I think she paid like $750 or something above what the auction price was. Good luck in your search.
Eric
My wife was born and raised in Lancaster County, PA - about 10 minutes from Manheim, PA (where their first auction is - I think they now own auctions all over the country). So with those connections you'd figure she would know somebody who would have access to the auctions on a "personal" level. Well - no such luck. That said - there are a number of small car dealers around the auctions that will act as "buyers representative" at the auctions and buy for cars for you. My mom actually used one last year - but she got pretty much a lemon of a car and was stuck with it (as she signed a contract telling them what to buy and in what condition - apparently the condition part is "in the eye of the beholder"). I think she paid like $750 or something above what the auction price was. Good luck in your search.
Eric
You must transport it to your location/home;
Pay to have it inspected;
Fix any inspection failures;
Replace any normal wear items; ( brakes, tires, blades, lights, glass, etc )
Pay the auctioneer fee;
Take all the risks of buying a true problem child;
Clean it up for your own use; ( detox if it was a smoker )
Pay your friend a 'finders fee' for his work.
After all this is accounted for you will likely save abt $1500 as opposed to buying it from a dealer ( normal profit, after costs, on a used vehicle ).
#38
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Originally Posted by bwilson4web
Hi Bob,
I see Mannheim is open only to dealers. Are there dealers who for a modest fee will work Mannheim for an individual?
For example, I perfer used cars to minimize the first year depreciation loss. We might be interested in a second hybrid next year and would be happy to travel to WY or MT or any other state that has a good deal on a hybrid.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
I see Mannheim is open only to dealers. Are there dealers who for a modest fee will work Mannheim for an individual?
For example, I perfer used cars to minimize the first year depreciation loss. We might be interested in a second hybrid next year and would be happy to travel to WY or MT or any other state that has a good deal on a hybrid.
Thanks,
Bob Wilson
I like you have been buying used vehicles, Toyota's mainly, for 18 yrs with no qualms about longevity - as long as there is a significant price differential. IMO right now there is not enough price differential in the Used Gen2's vs the new ones. For example on that 2004 vehicle I would want to buy it for abt $15K not $21K.
The supply is too thin in the resale market to allow the used prices to reach a natural level ~ 50% after 5 yrs with normal wear/miles.
#39
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Rigger,
Great post! Now I have something to say to the Rush Limbaugh followers who believe that the hybrid battery will cost 10k to replace!
That being said, I think that IF I shall ever have to actually pay for a battery pack in say....my HCH... the prices will have dropped because there are more of them being sold. A good example, not batteries but I can remember paying $300 for a whooping 4MB of RAM for my computer back in the early 90's. Now, people will literally give you their old 128MB when they upgrade. Hybrids are becoming mainstream enough that the batteries and other parts will drop drastically in price in the somewhat near future.
The price of packs will go down and the battery life longevity will go up. Just my opinion though, guess I'm an optimist.
Great post! Now I have something to say to the Rush Limbaugh followers who believe that the hybrid battery will cost 10k to replace!
Originally Posted by rigger
That being said, I think that IF I shall ever have to actually pay for a battery pack in say....my HCH... the prices will have dropped because there are more of them being sold. A good example, not batteries but I can remember paying $300 for a whooping 4MB of RAM for my computer back in the early 90's. Now, people will literally give you their old 128MB when they upgrade. Hybrids are becoming mainstream enough that the batteries and other parts will drop drastically in price in the somewhat near future.
The price of packs will go down and the battery life longevity will go up. Just my opinion though, guess I'm an optimist.
#40
Re: Hybrids: Save Gas, Loose money
Not only that, but why is it assumed that the whole pack is dead? In EVs that almost never happens. You should be able to open up the battery pack and test each individual cell. It'll take more time, but in the end it'll be *much* cheaper because you'll replace maybe one or two batteries in the pack instead of all of them.