I wonder if the new hybrid car will come with internet access?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/te...=1&oref=slogin

 

I'd like to see if there have been any analyses done to determine whether or not a plug-in hybrid is really better for the environment than the current energy-by-regenerative braking type. There are couple issues that I see: 1) what's the environmental costs of the additional batteries, especially once those batteries make it to the landfills; 2) the energy is coming from electricity.... but 40% of the electricity in this country comes from... burning coal! So, what's worse for the environment, less burning of oil with a presumably increase in coal burning? Or more oil burning and presumably, less coal burning? Which has the smaller carbon footprint? Intuitively, it would seem that getting that energy from electricity would be a net win, but I'm not sure from an efficiency standpoint if that's true, since the conversion of carbon-based fuels to electricity which then powers mechanical work is always more inefficient that burning carbon-based fuels directly to power that same mechanical work.

 

If you ever forget where you park it, can you perform a Google search for it. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

 

Hahahaha.

 

hsolo, if you poke around this forum you'll find just those sorts of figures. Basically the answer is, depends on what state you're in - in California you're cleaner, in states that burn a lot of coal, you're doing worse.

One argument in favor of plug-ins in general however is that it's economically easier and logistically faster to clean up a state's power production than it is to convert every single car on the road into a hybrid. A car can only run off of gas and electricity; putting a windmill on it is counterproductive, putting solar panels on it is (for the time being) of almost no value relative to the car's power requirements. Plugging the car into an outlet means what's on the other end can get cleaner and cleaner while you drive the same car for 10 or 15 years.

First 20% coal:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/electricity...tem_power.html

Then no coal, then 30% renewables, then big solar panels on your roof that avoid the energy losses of transportation - etc.

 

To add to what Soopahman said, there's also another 'energy losses of transportation' issue, which is that power lines already go to our homes, (and could be carrying more power, in many cases- though upgrading the grid is a possible issue, down the road) but we could get rid of the tanker trucks etc. that have to USE fuel to take fuel to all the gas stations, which we then have to use fuel to get to in order to fill up our cars. Eliminating or limiting gas station use probably cuts down tremendously on fuel consumption all by itself. Sure, more fuel in whatever form (today it's mostly gas or coal) would go to the power plants, perhaps, but big, centralized plants replacing dispersed webs of gas stations as a transportation cost? no contest as to which saves more energy.

 

Well, for those people in "electric choice" states you could pay the "premium" to purchase clean/green/renewable energy. You would just have to take that added cost into account. Then you are not increasing the output of CO or CO2 or any of the other "bad" emissions. People in those states can purchase "wind" energy for as little as $8.33/mo for 500wWh. Maybe someone here can quantify how much power recharging a PHEV battery would require?

As for the batteries, well, I believe that most of the materials in them is recycleable and will be recycled. Old NiMH batteries and the Li Ion batteries are NOT going to be chucked into landfills. There will undoubtedly be "core charges" associated with any replacements thereby ensuring they are properly taken care of. The only question is regarding the production of these batteries and that I know nothing about.

 

Great point Tim - I used to live in Massachusetts and I now live in California, and in both cases you can be choosey about how you get your power. In Massachusetts I was able to may a small premium (less than 10%) for my electricity being provided only by Renewables. Here in CA I'm paying about 6% premium on electricity and, if I'm reading correctly, that means 100% of the electricity I use is generated by Wind Farms - the amazing extent of which I've seen driving in through Palm Springs, it's amazing.

Anyway - as soon as it's economically feasible I'd like to turn my Prius into a Plug-in. I'll bet a lot of early adopters on that modification and on buying new Plug-in cars are the sort like me that are happy to pay a premium on green electricity, just like they are in paying a premium to help the environment with their car choice. So it's reasonable to suggest that say the first 5 years of Plug-in purchases will be powered by almost 100% green power.