IL Insider: GM To Debut Hybrid Full-Sized Trucks in Fall '07

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=116373

 

First the good news:
Hopefully we can lay to rest the $6,000 hybrid premium . . . or maybe not. Since when has a skeptic ever been bothered by the facts and data?

Then came the bad news:
No mention of an EV only mode in a transmission that sounds strangely complex to have dual-modes. Then there is this great, powerful, gas guzzling engine.

This does not sound like a hybrid with an electric vehicle mode with enough electric power to handle moving around a parking lot or loading dock. It sounds more like a big engine with an electric operated transmission. Hopefully, the real vehicles will be OK and this is just FUD.

Bob Wilson

 

Why do you think EV only mode is important? Honda seems to do ok without it.

I wonder what sized motor you would need to move a 5,000lb truck that is towing a 10,000lb camper in EV only mode?

 

Based on observation, about the same as it takes to move a 40lb child and 2 bags of groceries.

But let's face it. GM is a truck company that happens to sell cars too. Building and selling very high margin luxo-trucks as fast as they can is the only thing that has kept GM afloat in recent years, without them GM would have washed away by now. People still want massive SUVs and trucks with 300+ HP under the hood. Doesn't matter if they are towing a boat or picking up milk at the corner store. As long this is something a good percentage of people feel they need, at least the option is there to get something that doesn't totally suck (gas that is). Geez, even with my Camry I was reluctant to buy until I saw that it had almost 200HP net output...

As far as E-mode goes. Driving in E-mode is the absolute most fun I have when driving my Camry. I understand other hybrid technology can do pretty good without it if good FE is the only goal. But ****, driving in E-mode is fun! It actually has somewhat limited application because conditions have to be quite good to use it a lot, but when those conditions exist my FE soars! If the world was flat and all speed limits where 40mph I'd be getting 80mpg on this thing...

 

The assembly lines use electric motors and pull a nice long chain of 5,000 lb vehicles. Everyday manufacturing plants, cranes, mines and diesel-electric locomotives, all with electric motors, move huge weights from point A to point B. All that has been lacking were the batteries and the control laws.

One of 'tells' is the ratio of City to Highway MPG. A vehicle with a significant electric mode will have better City than Highway MPG than one without. Another tell is the ratio of electric motor to engine power but that isn't enough. Some of the modified Insights show that without changing motor or batteries, just using man-in-the-loop control laws, the same vehicle can achieve an even higher MPG rating. One of the clever Insight mods is addition of a retractable, 5th wheel providing a pure EV mode.

Back in the 60s, Mom taught me that if our car should stop in an intersection, I could just put the car in gear and use the starter motor to move it out of the hazard. Today, clutch-starter interlocks prevent operation unless the clutch is pushed in but back in those days, the starter was just another source of motive force that could be used in an emergency. But we don't know enough about the GM hybrids.

The GM hybrids may have an EV mode. If so, GM will have achieved something of merit. Alternatively, it may be a simple transmission with electric motors and the engine must run for the vehicle to move. If so, it will be a disappointment but lets wait until they actually show up.

Bob Wilson

 

It seems weird to me that they're including two transmissions, CVT and conventional automatic. What exactly are the advantages of an automatic tranny over a CVT? I thought the whole point of a CVT was it could keep the engine constantly close to max efficiency?

Having two transmissions sounds like a lot of unnecessary complexity-- just another thing that could potentially break down.

I am still also wondering whether the market really is there for these sorts of large hybrids. But, this is GM, you can count on them to run large trucks into the ground before actually trying to make smaller cars.

 

It sure has me scratchin' my head. The one press release sketch showed a front disk / fly wheel assembly that looked like it had a small torque converter. That part didn't make a lick of sense unless it was some sort of 'wet' clutch . . . nope it still doesn't make sense.

A lot of small businesses need the ability to handle urban transport and that often includes low speed manuvering. That is where an electric mode can shutdown the engine and efficiently move the vehicle around. Still, we need to see the real product.

Bob Wilson

 

I personally don't care how they get there, whether or not EV mode is possible, whether they have one or two transmissions. Regardless of the implementation a 25% increase in fuel economy is nothing to sneeze at.

And as was said earlier, people will still be looking for big powerful trucks, regardless of whether they need them (construction industry) or whether they want them (1 kid and 2 bags of groceries). In some circumstances this may not be the most efficient vehicle for the consumer's needs, but at least it's a lot more efficient than what they would have purchased.

 

I'm interested in understanding the dual-mode better and if it has advantages over HSD and IMA.

Toyota has been working on a hybrid pickup, but it gets real tricky if it's stuck in the dirt with a load. At that point, the electric motor is liable to burn out.

A 25% increase in big pickup mpg is good, but we know a lot more of them populate the nation than 25 years ago. I'd predict that the people getting the trucks as commuter vehicles will buy them a little longer, then the gas prices will just have to get a little higher before they consider a trade in. The public needs to both consider their real driving needs and embrace fuel-saving technology.

 

Just because having the EV-mode is fun does not mean that it is necessary to make a significant improvement on fuel economy or emissions. My HCHII does not have a legitimate EV-mode, but I do quite well. I could care less if somebody wants to say that my car is not a legitimate hybrid. I could have paid a lot more money for a Prius with its EV-mode. However, according to the database, I probably would not get much of an improvement in fuel economy. Also, the Civic has a higher Air Pollution Score (it is cleaner).

http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/E-TOYOTA-Prius-06.htm

http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/E-H...cHybrid-06.htm

If GM really sees a 25% increase in fuel economy, they are doing well.