Martin: I can understand how you could feel sensitive on GH sometimes. When GM makes bad decisions, some of the folk here blame you for it.

They shouldn't, but it happens here for some reason.

 

Look, I can get as annoyed about SUVs as anyone here, but I try to stay rational and civil. I would say that you have put your finger on exactly the issue that bothers me the most about them. The mid-size SUVs which could easily be replaced by much more efficient cars, and which don't belong to families with five children or more, SHOULD be replaced by those little cars. I'm happy to concede that there are people who need to drive larger vehicles- truckers, utility vans, big families, people who are always carpooling girl scout troops, sofas and neighbor children around (my personal preference in that case would be a station wagon, but I know that few people agree with me these days).

But it's the 'small' SUVs, which aren't really small, that seem the most wasteful. I constantly see commuters driving these vehicles with nothing in them, never taking people anywhere, never loaded with stuff. They don't use the space and the only thing they do with the extra power is break traffic laws; there just seems to be no reason for using so much gas to schlep all that extra weight of twisted metal around when they provide so little in return for the sacrifices we all have to make to pay for it.

If this is the sector that has a big sales drop off, then that seems to me to be right and proper, socially desirable, even environmentally responsible.

The job losses are tragic and sad. I do not rejoice in one lost job, in fact, it makes me even more angry because I think that it all could have been avoided if the American auto companies had done things differently.

 

My intent was not to SUV-bash, if that's how it was interpreted. To quote the article:

Now, a 7 year old knows better than to put all their eggs in one basket, be it the SUV basket or the hybrid car basket. Worse than any other manufacturer I can think of, Ford is guilty of it. It's not having a lot of SUV products that I object to. It's narrowing your car range to expand your SUV range that was short-sighted.

Their drop in sales has nothing to do with their past "long-standing success" and everything with bad business decisions, not necessarily Bill's fault. Why not pin it on Padilla? I can't imagine he didn't get a good parachute.


Great. More corporate welfare. Ford makes a profit, CEO's get rich. Ford screws up, and I have to foot the bill. This isn't "Ford went under, so we have to help out its employees". I have no problem with that. This is Ford making a calculated decision to use the taxpayers.

By God, if I'm getting stuck with the bill, I think I have every right to complain.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people assume smaller means more fuel efficient. Fortunately people are starting to pay more attention to stickers. I've been saying for a long time that GM's full size utilities (Tahoe, Yukon) with big V8s get better f/e than a lot of competitors small and mid-size SUVs. The new 2007 versions have further improved on that. The thing is a lot of the mid-sized SUVs are running with underpowered V6 engines that have to work hard all the time, as opposed to the Tahoe & Yukon V8s that generally loaf at highway speeds and now also shut off 4 of the 8 cylinders when they are not needed.

I think you'll still see a lot of mid-sized SUVs, but they'll be based on car chassis as opposed to truck chassis. These are the vehicles the press likes to refer to as "cross-over vehicles". I would also expect that there will be more than a few hybrid products developed from these cross-over vehicles. Let's face it, they provide more efficient ways of packaging battery packs without compromising the passenger compartment or cargo storage space.


Peace,

Martin

 

Just got back from vacation and expect a lot of talk about Ford's contractions.

Question: there are cut backs at Kansas City. Please tell me that does not impact the FEH.

If the reasons Bill Ford cited are accurate, I'm afraid it's just a matter of months before GM has a similar announcement.

I basically agree with what leahbeetle said, which as usual is eloquent.

 

Actually, that doesn't happen too often (or I'm too thick to notice it ).

I just shake my head though when people take the position that because company A makes a hybrid vehicle they like and company B doesn't, then company A walks on water and everything they do is for the betterment of mankind and the protection of kittens and puppies. Company B is, of course, managed by the Devil's spawn and the sooner we blast them into oblivion, the better off mankind is and we can save all those kittens and puppies.

Now, I've taken the analogy into the realm of the ridiculous, but believe me, that's not too far off from some of the sound-bites I pick up here.

It saddens me that so many people seem to revel in the difficulties being experienced by American companies that for decades have contributed to the economic and social progress of this country we love. Even more so when data is presented that clearly demonstrates that the biggest contributors to the difficult positions our domestic companies are in can be directly traced to unevenly applied policies and legacy costs that are the result of these companies agreeing to provide for the well-being of its employees and retirees for life. To reduce that to "but they don't have a 40 mpg hybrid so screw 'em" is incredibly callous.

Peace,

Martin

 

Talk about eloquent. Thanks Martin, for helping us to see the depth and complexity of this issue.

 

Martin I also think you're a great person to have here.
Certainly not as any "spokes person" as you've affirmed but as a very articluate and great conversationalist. It's a pleasure.

My family used to be Dodge specific, until I moved to rural N. Ga and found myself in the car market for a loaded commuter with max FE and is why my HCH won over Dodge's Neon.

Any time any of the big 3 announce cut backs, layoffs and closings I just cringe.

As a collector/repair person of antique technology I see the automobile industry fighting for its life with many similarities to our own electronic industry (or lack of).
Many factors contributed to Japan's complete & total take over in this field.

The quality, design and materials of our Grand Caravan is clearly superior to our Honda regarding bodywork, and I hope America can catch up with the rest. (Reliability, FE etc)

I am very optimistic this will happen but sadly we might someday end up replacing our Caravan with a diesel Odyssey for efficiency.

On the other hand I heard they are working on plug in and hydraulic hybrids so I'm very optimistic!

-Steve

 

Question worth asking again: will the cutbacks in Kansas City affect production of the FEH? I earnestly hope not!

 

A new wrinkle in this saga appeared yesterday -- Ford may take itself private. Since the Ford family reportedly controls ~40% of the voting stock, that wouldn't be too hard at current prices. Maybe they should drive the price down further and do it on the super-cheap!

One definitely positive thing about Ford going private: If/when it goes under completely, no one other than the Fords themselves will lose their shirts on worthless shares. Also, we taxpayers won't be on the hook for another bailout.

For the record, my hostility toward Garbage Motors (GM) has nothing to do with its gas guzzlers (everyone makes at least some) or hybrids/no hybrids, and only a little to do with its Keystone Kops management. At least 90% of it is based on personal experience with its shoddy products. The last straw was my wife's '84 Pontiac, which should have come with a Mission:Impossible-style warning tape saying "This car will self-destruct in 3 years or 36,000 miles." Not only will neither of us ever consider buying a GM car again, we won't even rent one while traveling. Multiply that by millions of other angry ex-customers, and you know the real reason Ford & GM are in a downward spiral that may require Ch. 11 to get out of. (And no, we will not be lured back by supplications of "Please try us again -- we're not as crappy as we used to be" and/or flag-waving.)