Energy bill
#1
12-07-2007, 03:48 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Energy bill
http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...22327020071206
Well, the fats on the fire. This bill, like the Senate bill, puts both trucks and cars under the 35 MPG requirement. It is likely to be vetoed but for now, it is moving forward.
Bob Wilson
* Raises car and truck fuel efficiency to 35 miles per gallon (15 km per liter) by 2020.
* Cuts U.S. oil demand by 1.1 million barrels a day by 2020.
* Cuts greenhouse gases equal to what 28 million cars emit. Increased Biofuels Production
* Boosts mandated use of renewable fuels like ethanol to 36 billion gallons by 2022; supply from corn capped at 15 billion gallons.
* Ethanol from non-corn and farm wastes to reach 3 billion gallons in 2016 and rise to 21 billion gallons by 2022. Renewable Electricity Standard
* Requires utilities to generate 15 percent of their power from renewable sources likes solar energy and wind by 2020.
* The measure exempts municipal and other publicly-owned power plants, federal agencies and rural electric coops and small private utilities. Tax Incentives
* Provides $3,000 tax credit for plug-in hybrid vehicles.
* $2.2 billion in tax incentives for clean coal technology.
* Imposes $13 billion in taxes on oil companies.
* Gives $6.6 billion in tax credits for renewable sources. Improved Energy Standards for Appliances and Lighting
* Reduces energy use by refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers, clothes washers and in lighting.
* Requires government to substitute energy-efficient lighting for incandescent bulbs. Energy Savings in Buildings and Industry
* Requires improved energy efficiency in federal and commercial buildings.
* Boosts funding for federal program to help poor families weatherize their homes. Alternative Energy Research and Development
* Supports research to produce electricity from ocean waves.
* Improves life of batteries for hybrid electric vehicles.
* Develops geothermal energy resources to produce electric power from steam and hot water inside the earth. Carbon Capture and Sequestration
* Finds ways to capture and store carbon dioxide emissions from coal-fired power plants. Improved Management of Energy Policy
* Bans oil companies from energy market manipulation, imposes new civil and criminal penalties.
* Improve U.S. energy production by 2.5 percent by 2012. Other Provisions
* Encourages states to carry out transportation projects that reduce air pollution.
* Promotes short-sea shipping as an alternative to land-based freight transportation.
* Increases loan limits to help small businesses develop energy efficient technologies and purchases.
* Cuts U.S. oil demand by 1.1 million barrels a day by 2020.
* Cuts greenhouse gases equal to what 28 million cars emit. Increased Biofuels Production
* Boosts mandated use of renewable fuels like ethanol to 36 billion gallons by 2022; supply from corn capped at 15 billion gallons.
* Ethanol from non-corn and farm wastes to reach 3 billion gallons in 2016 and rise to 21 billion gallons by 2022. Renewable Electricity Standard
* Requires utilities to generate 15 percent of their power from renewable sources likes solar energy and wind by 2020.
* The measure exempts municipal and other publicly-owned power plants, federal agencies and rural electric coops and small private utilities. Tax Incentives
* Provides $3,000 tax credit for plug-in hybrid vehicles.
* $2.2 billion in tax incentives for clean coal technology.
* Imposes $13 billion in taxes on oil companies.
* Gives $6.6 billion in tax credits for renewable sources. Improved Energy Standards for Appliances and Lighting
* Reduces energy use by refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers, clothes washers and in lighting.
* Requires government to substitute energy-efficient lighting for incandescent bulbs. Energy Savings in Buildings and Industry
* Requires improved energy efficiency in federal and commercial buildings.
* Boosts funding for federal program to help poor families weatherize their homes. Alternative Energy Research and Development
* Supports research to produce electricity from ocean waves.
* Improves life of batteries for hybrid electric vehicles.
* Develops geothermal energy resources to produce electric power from steam and hot water inside the earth. Carbon Capture and Sequestration
* Finds ways to capture and store carbon dioxide emissions from coal-fired power plants. Improved Management of Energy Policy
* Bans oil companies from energy market manipulation, imposes new civil and criminal penalties.
* Improve U.S. energy production by 2.5 percent by 2012. Other Provisions
* Encourages states to carry out transportation projects that reduce air pollution.
* Promotes short-sea shipping as an alternative to land-based freight transportation.
* Increases loan limits to help small businesses develop energy efficient technologies and purchases.
Bob Wilson
#2
12-07-2007, 06:54 AM
Re: Energy bill
the president already promised a veto.
am i alone in thinking this goes about 10 percent as far as it should?
i mean 35mpg in 13 yeas? thats pathetic. Maybe if they had said 35mpg in 5 years for ALL vehicles and not omitted full size trucks. As far as i know this only applies to cars and light duty trucks.
i am curious about the specifics of alternative energy rebates for individuals. I am getting ready to put a solar water heater on my house and want to put a PV array up as soon as possible, but the federal incentives arent that great and until i get a plug in hybrid i would only eliminate my electric bill for my house which currently is like 35 dollars a month.
even if the senate passes this Bush will veto and there is no way they will get an override.
even a half *** measure like this is better than nothing.
am i alone in thinking this goes about 10 percent as far as it should?
i mean 35mpg in 13 yeas? thats pathetic. Maybe if they had said 35mpg in 5 years for ALL vehicles and not omitted full size trucks. As far as i know this only applies to cars and light duty trucks.
i am curious about the specifics of alternative energy rebates for individuals. I am getting ready to put a solar water heater on my house and want to put a PV array up as soon as possible, but the federal incentives arent that great and until i get a plug in hybrid i would only eliminate my electric bill for my house which currently is like 35 dollars a month.
even if the senate passes this Bush will veto and there is no way they will get an override.
even a half *** measure like this is better than nothing.
#3
12-07-2007, 09:28 AM
Re: Energy bill
I think that a part of it is the way that incentives are structured to serve big business. Bigger cars can be sold for higher profits and they use more "product". So the lobby for the american automotive and oil industries, driven by the corporations, which is turn are driven by their stockholders, all push for lower standards and higher consumption. We are now way beyond "planned obsoloesence' and into accelerated obsoloesence introduced by annual or even more frequent style changes, shorter manufacturer support life cycles (sometimes not much longer than the warrantees now), planned color and interior style outdating and ever so many other subtle ways to accelerate turnover of "product".
If anyone in Washington was even half-way serious about energy reform or the planet's environment they could address those concerns tommorrow. There are no technical challenges -- we already have the answers -- but we do not have the political will.
EXAMPLE -- I recently saw a study (I forget where for the moment) that proposed a "Sin Tax" on personal vehicles that exceeded a specific formula for the power to weight ratio. The proposed ratio did not seem unreasonable to me and I remember it proposed a ratio that established about a 2.5L engine or so for a 4000 pound vehicle (curbweight). The study concluded, that passage of the ratio into law would permit the US to elimiate ALL oil imports from the Middle East if all other sources of oil were retained as already in place.
We don't lack the ability, we lack the will.
If anyone in Washington was even half-way serious about energy reform or the planet's environment they could address those concerns tommorrow. There are no technical challenges -- we already have the answers -- but we do not have the political will.
EXAMPLE -- I recently saw a study (I forget where for the moment) that proposed a "Sin Tax" on personal vehicles that exceeded a specific formula for the power to weight ratio. The proposed ratio did not seem unreasonable to me and I remember it proposed a ratio that established about a 2.5L engine or so for a 4000 pound vehicle (curbweight). The study concluded, that passage of the ratio into law would permit the US to elimiate ALL oil imports from the Middle East if all other sources of oil were retained as already in place.
We don't lack the ability, we lack the will.
Last edited by FastMover; 12-07-2007 at 09:34 AM.
#4
12-07-2007, 09:55 AM
Re: Energy bill
I really like the part where they cap the amount of ethanol from corn- that's a major flaw in most renewable fuel proposals or a missing element of discussions of ethanol generally.
Half a loaf better than none, indeed. But even if there are problems, there is lots of good stuff here, plenty of great ideas.
Bush will veto this, however, which really, really stinks. Then again, name any legislation lately that he HASN'T threatened to veto. Every single budget bill, every bill involving emergency spending or the Iraq war, every human rights or health issue from banning torture to kids' health insurance to funding medical research... vetos, vetos, and more vetos, either actual or threatened. Even the minimum wage increase that was finally passed had a veto threat looming over it and only got through as part of another bill.
He's going to do what he's going to do, and all Congress can do at this point is keep passing legislation that would do what needs to be done, and either the backlash at the President for crippling basic government functions (ie: we haven't had actual appropriations bills passed for 11 out of 13 federal departments, all but DOD and DHS, in two full years thanks to last year's do-nothing Republican Congress and this year's vetos/veto threats from Bush) will finally pressure him into signing a few things, or they'll have to pass them again next time. They can't just sit and do nothing because the President is acting like this. It's frustrating, but you have to keep moving forward. If a good bill has been hashed out then they may just take it up again and pass it more quickly at a later time, when it'll stand a better shot at being enacted. (ie: after Bush is out of office- though I hope sincerely it does not have to wait that long).
Half a loaf better than none, indeed. But even if there are problems, there is lots of good stuff here, plenty of great ideas.
Bush will veto this, however, which really, really stinks. Then again, name any legislation lately that he HASN'T threatened to veto. Every single budget bill, every bill involving emergency spending or the Iraq war, every human rights or health issue from banning torture to kids' health insurance to funding medical research... vetos, vetos, and more vetos, either actual or threatened. Even the minimum wage increase that was finally passed had a veto threat looming over it and only got through as part of another bill.
He's going to do what he's going to do, and all Congress can do at this point is keep passing legislation that would do what needs to be done, and either the backlash at the President for crippling basic government functions (ie: we haven't had actual appropriations bills passed for 11 out of 13 federal departments, all but DOD and DHS, in two full years thanks to last year's do-nothing Republican Congress and this year's vetos/veto threats from Bush) will finally pressure him into signing a few things, or they'll have to pass them again next time. They can't just sit and do nothing because the President is acting like this. It's frustrating, but you have to keep moving forward. If a good bill has been hashed out then they may just take it up again and pass it more quickly at a later time, when it'll stand a better shot at being enacted. (ie: after Bush is out of office- though I hope sincerely it does not have to wait that long).
#5
12-07-2007, 10:10 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: Energy bill
The Senate this morning had a cloture vote and held it up again. The Republican senators claim the bill can be fixed . . . we'll see. There were promises to work through this weekend.
I agree the appropriations system is badly broken and fixing it may not be possible.
Some of the provisions, if the article is correct, read like passing a law commanding the tide to stop. I tend to prefer more modest proposals with sunset clauses.
Bob Wilson
I agree the appropriations system is badly broken and fixing it may not be possible.
Some of the provisions, if the article is correct, read like passing a law commanding the tide to stop. I tend to prefer more modest proposals with sunset clauses.
Bob Wilson
#6
12-07-2007, 07:25 PM
Re: Energy bill
why not start giving some incentives to individuals. Big corporations get tax abaitments and all kinds of tax breaks, why not give me a good reason to put high efficiency appliances, CFL bulbs, PV panels, wind power geothermal, high efficiency windows, electric cars.
corporations have proven they are driven by the drive to be able to write a positive quarterly report. This shortsighted planning model will never lead us in the right direction. Individuals can cause the same change if they are given access to the same tools.
I want a government that is for the people not for the dollar.
my power company here in arizona isnt even required to buy back surplus power that you would generate if you put on PV panels or wind turbines. They only have to give you an energy credit, which if you dont consume by the end of the calendar year you lose. Its really quite silly. If someone wanted real incentives they would offset the PV array cost more substantially as well as require net metering with a retail rate buy back mandate. Buying CFL bulbs should be subsidized.
A real off switch for electronics like TVs, home theaters etc needs to be mandated. Meaning when I hit the power button it doesn't keep drawing 50 percent of its peak power. Same with cell phone chargers etc.
If our government were serious about actually doing something they would be pressing more real measures to create real changes.
Ok I am done ranting.
corporations have proven they are driven by the drive to be able to write a positive quarterly report. This shortsighted planning model will never lead us in the right direction. Individuals can cause the same change if they are given access to the same tools.
I want a government that is for the people not for the dollar.
my power company here in arizona isnt even required to buy back surplus power that you would generate if you put on PV panels or wind turbines. They only have to give you an energy credit, which if you dont consume by the end of the calendar year you lose. Its really quite silly. If someone wanted real incentives they would offset the PV array cost more substantially as well as require net metering with a retail rate buy back mandate. Buying CFL bulbs should be subsidized.
A real off switch for electronics like TVs, home theaters etc needs to be mandated. Meaning when I hit the power button it doesn't keep drawing 50 percent of its peak power. Same with cell phone chargers etc.
If our government were serious about actually doing something they would be pressing more real measures to create real changes.
Ok I am done ranting.
#7
12-17-2007, 05:42 AM
Re: Energy bill
So the lobby for the american automotive and oil industries, driven by the corporations, which is turn are driven by their stockholders, all push for lower standards and higher consumption. We are now way beyond "planned obsoloesence' and into accelerated obsoloesence introduced by annual or even more frequent style changes, shorter manufacturer support life cycles (sometimes not much longer than the warrantees now), planned color and interior style outdating and ever so many other subtle ways to accelerate turnover of "product".
Sorta yes, sorta no. Typical vehicle life cycles in the industry are still 5 or 6 years before a major upgrade or complete restructure. In between you tend see "face-lift" sorts of behaviour, where front and rear fascias, headlamp / taillamp treatment, and wheel and option packages may change without any real change to the basic vehicle. Shortening lifecycles costs a ton of money. Usually in amounts beginning with a "B" for larger volumed products. Automakers have gotten very good at making quick changes to the things that buyers see (colors, wheels, grills, rear fascias) without making changes to things they don't see (suspension systems, powertrains, roof structures, interior / instrument panel, wheelbase)
If anyone in Washington was even half-way serious about energy reform or the planet's environment they could address those concerns tommorrow. There are no technical challenges -- we already have the answers -- but we do not have the political will.
EXAMPLE -- I recently saw a study (I forget where for the moment) that proposed a "Sin Tax" on personal vehicles that exceeded a specific formula for the power to weight ratio. The proposed ratio did not seem unreasonable to me and I remember it proposed a ratio that established about a 2.5L engine or so for a 4000 pound vehicle (curbweight). The study concluded, that passage of the ratio into law would permit the US to elimiate ALL oil imports from the Middle East if all other sources of oil were retained as already in place.
We don't lack the ability, we lack the will.
EXAMPLE -- I recently saw a study (I forget where for the moment) that proposed a "Sin Tax" on personal vehicles that exceeded a specific formula for the power to weight ratio. The proposed ratio did not seem unreasonable to me and I remember it proposed a ratio that established about a 2.5L engine or so for a 4000 pound vehicle (curbweight). The study concluded, that passage of the ratio into law would permit the US to elimiate ALL oil imports from the Middle East if all other sources of oil were retained as already in place.
We don't lack the ability, we lack the will.
.Peace,
Martin
#8
12-26-2007, 10:06 AM
Re: Energy bill
Originally Posted by martinjlm
Depending on what country you're in, there are taxes that either directly or indirectly tax engine displacement. That's why the cars in Europe are for the most part smaller...
Your point is not without some truth, however. There are economic factors that can shape the overall price for different models, and that can vary from place to place and from one government program to the next. Generally, though, those narrow little roads are the immutable part of the equation.
#9
01-02-2008, 05:30 AM
Re: Energy bill
The taxes placed on engine displacement and the taxes placed on fuels, as well as INCENTIVES placed on certain types of vehicles and fuels appear to be having the most profound impact on vehicle types. For instance, in aggregate, diesel cars account for roughly 50% of car sales in western Europe. But in Spain, where diesel is heavily subsidized, it's over 70%. Similar roads and infra-structure compared to Germany and France, but much different car sales penetration driven by consumer reaction to government intervention on the market place side of the equation, not the manufacturer side of the equation. Manufacturers react much more quickly to market dynamics than to regulated dynamics.
Peace,
Martin
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