Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
#11
10-31-2005, 02:13 PM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
H2 - we have got to redefine the connotation of "H2" 
#12
10-31-2005, 03:01 PM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
The two most common ways to produce hydrogen:
a - electrolysis: when applying an electric potential to plain water via Pt electrodes (including rain water), a current flows, and Oxygen and Hydrogen are formed at the two electrodes respectively. This requires a considerable current flow, and is not the most efficient way to rpoduce hydrogen.
b - by heating natural gas. I'm not sure about the details of the production process, but this is supposed to be more energy efficient than a. Still requires large amount of energy for heating, pumping etc., and also requires a fossil fuel. However, it can be integrated into other processes, thus using some of the waste heat of other processes. This is how about 90% of hydrogen is made today.
Either way, massive amounts of energy will be needed to make hydrogen required if all were to drive fuel cell vehicles. Some have stated that if one new nuclear power plant were to come online every month from now on for the next 10 years, this would still not suffice to produce the energy needed to produce enough hydrogen for all vehicles in the US, were they fuel cell vehicles.
Fuel cells and hydrogen use are a separate debate from conservation of energy. No matter what energy source is used, we would be better off if we conserved. Thus, fuel cells will not reduce the need for energy efficient, frugal vehicles.
One setup that would be nice to have is a fuel cell Prius. A Prius would still be applicable and desirable, as it is efficient in terms of aerodynamics, reasonable size and mass, regenerative braking etc.. Combine that with a home hydrogen plant using solar panels on the roof to make the hydrogen to rurn the car.
Wouldn't that be sweet?
a - electrolysis: when applying an electric potential to plain water via Pt electrodes (including rain water), a current flows, and Oxygen and Hydrogen are formed at the two electrodes respectively. This requires a considerable current flow, and is not the most efficient way to rpoduce hydrogen.
b - by heating natural gas. I'm not sure about the details of the production process, but this is supposed to be more energy efficient than a. Still requires large amount of energy for heating, pumping etc., and also requires a fossil fuel. However, it can be integrated into other processes, thus using some of the waste heat of other processes. This is how about 90% of hydrogen is made today.
Either way, massive amounts of energy will be needed to make hydrogen required if all were to drive fuel cell vehicles. Some have stated that if one new nuclear power plant were to come online every month from now on for the next 10 years, this would still not suffice to produce the energy needed to produce enough hydrogen for all vehicles in the US, were they fuel cell vehicles.
Fuel cells and hydrogen use are a separate debate from conservation of energy. No matter what energy source is used, we would be better off if we conserved. Thus, fuel cells will not reduce the need for energy efficient, frugal vehicles.
One setup that would be nice to have is a fuel cell Prius. A Prius would still be applicable and desirable, as it is efficient in terms of aerodynamics, reasonable size and mass, regenerative braking etc.. Combine that with a home hydrogen plant using solar panels on the roof to make the hydrogen to rurn the car.
Wouldn't that be sweet?
#13
10-31-2005, 04:08 PM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Hi All:
___One more issue with using PV’s for electrolysis. You have to compress the H2 effluent. That takes another huge amount of energy. Electrolysis in and of itself is not the most efficient use of a PV by any stretch. You would probably be much better off with an EV being charged via a PV then electrolyzing H2O for H2 production. For storage at home, a huge Pb-Acid group might be the cheapest way to go if you were storing power? That large Pb-Acid is not going to be cheap either … PV to a PHEV or EV is probably the best overall solution. Creating H2 from H20 and storing it for the long terms seems outrageously expensive to me?
___What I cannot wait for is a home based E100 distilling solution from switchgrass or whatever to get us all out on the road inexpensively. This would really **** off those in the oil monopoly and such but it sure would be great
___If Brazil can sell renewable E100 for $25.00/BBl or $0.52/gallon, why are we screwing around with anything else nowadays?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___One more issue with using PV’s for electrolysis. You have to compress the H2 effluent. That takes another huge amount of energy. Electrolysis in and of itself is not the most efficient use of a PV by any stretch. You would probably be much better off with an EV being charged via a PV then electrolyzing H2O for H2 production. For storage at home, a huge Pb-Acid group might be the cheapest way to go if you were storing power? That large Pb-Acid is not going to be cheap either … PV to a PHEV or EV is probably the best overall solution. Creating H2 from H20 and storing it for the long terms seems outrageously expensive to me?
___What I cannot wait for is a home based E100 distilling solution from switchgrass or whatever to get us all out on the road inexpensively. This would really **** off those in the oil monopoly and such but it sure would be great
___If Brazil can sell renewable E100 for $25.00/BBl or $0.52/gallon, why are we screwing around with anything else nowadays?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#14
11-01-2005, 01:30 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Originally Posted by xcel
___If Brazil can sell renewable E100 for $25.00/BBl or $0.52/gallon, why are we screwing around with anything else nowadays?
It takes ~60 kWh of electricity to make and compress 1 kg of hydrogen, giving about 60 miles range in today's best fuel-cell vehicles. So would it be fair to say that 1 kg of hydrogen is more or less the equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline? If so, assuming electricity to cost $5 per kilowatt-hour, then 1 "gallon" of hydrogen would cost 60 x 5 = $3.00.
I'm not sure many people in 2020 would enjoy spending 10-30 times as much on their fuel bills as people driving bio-renewable fuel powered cars.
#15
11-01-2005, 07:33 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Hi Clett:
___I think your $/kWh might be a bit off?
___Given your European location, are their French, German, and British sites that have the kind of discussions we have her at GH in regards to FE, energy conversion, fuels, hyper efficient automobiles, hypermileage driving techniques, and such? With gas and diesel costing as much as it does over there, I am surprised Europeans are not all over much of this let alone running straight up SVO in their diesels with an SVO conversion kit costing all of maybe $800.00 US? If you can purchase SVO for $0.30/gallon vs. $7.00/gallon for ULSD/LSD, an SVO conversion would pay itself off in < 120 gallons of ULSD/LSD!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I think your $/kWh might be a bit off?
___Given your European location, are their French, German, and British sites that have the kind of discussions we have her at GH in regards to FE, energy conversion, fuels, hyper efficient automobiles, hypermileage driving techniques, and such? With gas and diesel costing as much as it does over there, I am surprised Europeans are not all over much of this let alone running straight up SVO in their diesels with an SVO conversion kit costing all of maybe $800.00 US? If you can purchase SVO for $0.30/gallon vs. $7.00/gallon for ULSD/LSD, an SVO conversion would pay itself off in < 120 gallons of ULSD/LSD!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#16
11-01-2005, 08:26 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
$5 per kWh of electricity? That seems way, way too high!
I get my electricity from Green Mountain Energy, and as a 100% wind-power provider (for my service) they are not the cheapest by far, yet rate varies between 10 and 14 cents per kWh. My overall price including service charges, taxes etc... was 14.1 c / kWh for the last month.
I get my electricity from Green Mountain Energy, and as a 100% wind-power provider (for my service) they are not the cheapest by far, yet rate varies between 10 and 14 cents per kWh. My overall price including service charges, taxes etc... was 14.1 c / kWh for the last month.
#17
11-01-2005, 08:33 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Oops! That was meant to be 5 cents per kWh - not dollars. 
Over here in Europe we have a lot of people running on straight vegetable oil (no separate tanks, no heated pipes, no conversions just 100% vegetable oil in the summer in unmodified engines). see here
The 30 cents per gallon thing has been projected for future rape-seed oil produced SVO. At the moment it is a lot more than that because it must all be "food-grade" when we buy it from the supermarket. (Or free if you get it used from a restaturant)
The big problem is the (UK) government have made it illegal to use SVO without paying all the duties and taxes on it, which when playing by the rules makes it almost as expensive as normal diesel!
Over here in Europe we have a lot of people running on straight vegetable oil (no separate tanks, no heated pipes, no conversions just 100% vegetable oil in the summer in unmodified engines). see here
The 30 cents per gallon thing has been projected for future rape-seed oil produced SVO. At the moment it is a lot more than that because it must all be "food-grade" when we buy it from the supermarket. (Or free if you get it used from a restaturant)
The big problem is the (UK) government have made it illegal to use SVO without paying all the duties and taxes on it, which when playing by the rules makes it almost as expensive as normal diesel!
#18
11-01-2005, 09:01 AM
Another Good Article on This Topic (Hydrogen)
MSNBC Story
Very informative link.
To kick off FCVs, I think it will probably have to start in government and fleet vechicles to get some volumn. I would not expect it before next decade.
Very informative link.
To kick off FCVs, I think it will probably have to start in government and fleet vechicles to get some volumn. I would not expect it before next decade.
#19
11-01-2005, 09:03 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
It would take an ecologically-minded Democrat president, and a Democrat House/Senate to make any real headway in E85 conversion. Right now, we have the Stupid Cowboy for another three years. He's bought and paid-for by Big Oil, and he's too dumb to understand any of that "tekknollogie that ya git from that thar book learnin'".
Personally, I think the current administration LIKES being dependant on foreign oil. That way the Stupid Cowboy has the platform to push all of his crazy money-wasting, soldier-killing, environment-wrecking agendas.
Personally, I think the current administration LIKES being dependant on foreign oil. That way the Stupid Cowboy has the platform to push all of his crazy money-wasting, soldier-killing, environment-wrecking agendas.
Last edited by AshenGrey; 11-01-2005 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Capitalization error
#20
11-01-2005, 09:33 AM
Re: Automakers are betting that hydrogen-fueled cars are the future - a long road awaits
Hi Clett:
___Sorry all for the OT post … again
___At some point, you have to consider if illegal is any worse then purchasing a non-renewable from outside the country that is a known emissions nightmare (SMOG and CO2 based) let alone adding a huge amount to the balance of trade deficit after the purchase of each and every gallon? If your government or mine keeps this kind of non-sense up, we will all be going to a home brew method no matter the illegalities of the process or not …
The TDI-SVO controversy
Greasecar FAQ
___As far as using SVO, why wouldn’t you want to use a separate tank and coolant/electric heater setup? It keeps everything separate and warmed SVO is far easier to pump then colder SVO although it is still not perfect given the huge viscosity difference vs. Diesel #1 or #2? After reading few minutes worth of articles on SVO, conversion kits, and DI/Common Rail pros and cons, I would do the SVO to Bio conversion and directly fill the tank during the summer time months and even then there are possible problems. Bio’s cloud point at 32 degrees F for example. Still, at $7.00 + for Diesel #2, you would see many more American’s creating their own Fuel legal or not!
___H2 is so far off in the future if ever even practical to discuss imho. All I see is a huge boondoggle to keep us on the Oil std. FCV’s? Not only are the FCV’s costs and range outrageous (.5 million a copy w/ extremely limited range), the FC’s PEM’s longevity and ability to run under all temperature conditions is far less then a std. automobiles ICE. Running an ICE on H2 directly ala Ford and BMW is probably far more practical? In either case, creation and storage of H2 is so far out in Star Trek territory as to make this conversation practically irrelevant no matter how many $’s are wasted on the H2 economy. The joke is on all of us in fact.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Sorry all for the OT post … again
___At some point, you have to consider if illegal is any worse then purchasing a non-renewable from outside the country that is a known emissions nightmare (SMOG and CO2 based) let alone adding a huge amount to the balance of trade deficit after the purchase of each and every gallon? If your government or mine keeps this kind of non-sense up, we will all be going to a home brew method no matter the illegalities of the process or not …
The TDI-SVO controversy
Greasecar FAQ
___As far as using SVO, why wouldn’t you want to use a separate tank and coolant/electric heater setup? It keeps everything separate and warmed SVO is far easier to pump then colder SVO although it is still not perfect given the huge viscosity difference vs. Diesel #1 or #2? After reading few minutes worth of articles on SVO, conversion kits, and DI/Common Rail pros and cons, I would do the SVO to Bio conversion and directly fill the tank during the summer time months and even then there are possible problems. Bio’s cloud point at 32 degrees F for example. Still, at $7.00 + for Diesel #2, you would see many more American’s creating their own Fuel legal or not!
___H2 is so far off in the future if ever even practical to discuss imho. All I see is a huge boondoggle to keep us on the Oil std. FCV’s? Not only are the FCV’s costs and range outrageous (.5 million a copy w/ extremely limited range), the FC’s PEM’s longevity and ability to run under all temperature conditions is far less then a std. automobiles ICE. Running an ICE on H2 directly ala Ford and BMW is probably far more practical? In either case, creation and storage of H2 is so far out in Star Trek territory as to make this conversation practically irrelevant no matter how many $’s are wasted on the H2 economy. The joke is on all of us in fact.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
