Hi,

This often comes up when discussing public policy with Libertarians who seem opposed to any public-private efforts. Personally, I don't see a problem with our government helping to 'boot strap' a new technology that has so many advantages but faces the startup costs of any new technology provided it is a viable technology (I have major physics, chemistry and economic issues with 'fool cells'.)

The grandfather of the Chevy Volt was probably part of the inspiration for the Prius I drive today. Having bought a used Prius, I never received any direct government aid for driving a car that gets 52.4 MPG. But I never objected to purchase incentives since it was of limited duration and eventually sunset.

Sensible Republicans and practical Democrats have long realized that we are in one boat and we have to make smart decisions. So for me, there is no problem with startup subsidies that expire. The payoff to me at the pump of not having to put up with Volt drivers burning up the last of the gas I also need.

BTW, welcome to GreenHybrid were we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

Bob Wilson

 

Great post alter, thanks for keeping it respectful!

I paid just under 30k for my 08feh, so I don't think that price is too high. I am also reading that the volt will have a total mileage of about 400 on a charge if you take into account the ice used to help out after the 40 mile battery depletion..

If GM can pull that off, I think it will be very attractive to guys like us (hybrid enthusiasts) and much of the general public...

just a thought....

08feh

 

I am not particularly against government intervention on behalf of an industry, but I am against having public funds used to bail out companies that should have done a better job of managing their own resources. I am against us becoming a welfare state for poorly managed corporations, that, by their own mismanagement, are no longer competitive in the market place. I think the government can, and should, give incentives to consumers that purchase, both new and used, high efficiency, environmentally friendly vehicles; as in the long run it benefits our country as a whole. If you want to give incentives to companies, I am fine with that too; just make it based on results rather than speculative research, and don't deny those funds to foreign companies that may be pursuing research in similar areas. The majority of the vehicles we purchase are not manufactured by US owned companies, and so I do not see how only helping a minority of the auto manufacturers helps to reduce our overall dependence on oil; especially given that "foreign" brands have as many manufacturing centers in the US as the domestically owned ones.

As far as your vehicle goes, my understanding is that the EV1 and the Prius were developed at the same time, they both came out around 1997, and the Prius was developed internally by Toyota in conjunction with Matsushita's electrical division. In fact I think that GM benefited from the NiMH technology pioneered by Toyota and Matsushita with their second generation EV1s, and so technically the Prius is closer to the EV1's grandfather as opposed to the reverse. At least that is my understanding of things anyways.

The concerns I have with the Volt are primarily with the untested LI batteries they are using, and their electric drivetrain. The LIs have better charge capacity, and charge rates, but they are more combustible and tend to operate at higher temperatures. Honda has refrained from using LIs and stuck with NiMH because of this, and Toyota is going to release the next generation of Prius initially with NiMH and phase in LIs after they are tested further. (They had planned for LIs by 2010 as well, but could not safely get the technology to market by that time.) The issue will be is if Chevy rushes to the market place with LIs and screws up and gets someone killed, or the platform does not perform as well as anticipated. If that happens electric vehicles, and LIs will have a serious public relations crisis. I just don't want Chevy, who is not known for their electrical engineering prowess, and who is really banking on this as part of their "green" revitalization plans, to screw up the market for other companies who might have more expertise in this area.

As far as the 30K thing goes... I am cheap lol. It was a big deal for me to spend 9K on my 03 Civic Hybrid (pictured below with a slightly green tint) a couple of months ago in April. I can't guarantee that I will never spend that much on a car, but I will do everything in my power to avoid it. That is just too much money to invest into something that is just going depreciate. But again I am cheap, so my opinion is not going to be a good representation of the market, or common spending practices.

 

you wrote:

"The concerns I have with the Volt are primarily with the untested LI batteries they are using, and their electric drivetrain. The LIs have better charge capacity, and charge rates, but they are more combustible and tend to operate at higher temperatures. Honda has refrained from using LIs and stuck with NiMH because of this, and Toyota is going to release the next generation of Prius initially with NiMH and phase in LIs after they are tested further. (They had planned for LIs by 2010 as well, but could not safely get the technology to market by that time.) The issue will be is if Chevy rushes to the market place with LIs and screws up and gets someone killed, or the platform does not perform as well as anticipated. If that happens electric vehicles, and LIs will have a serious public relations crisis. I just don't want Chevy, who is not known for their electrical engineering prowess, and who is really banking on this as part of their "green" revitalization plans, to screw up the market for other companies who might have more expertise in this area.
"

Exactly my point that IF GM hadn't taken that technology off the road (ev-1), for WHATEVER reason others want to use, They would be FAR AHEAD on these battery tests and improvements.

08feh

 

Interesting article.

I hope GM makes this thing work. We need these kinds of technological developments.

GM has for too many decades been an arrogant, shortsighted company. But I don't wish them ill. I wish them well. I'm very aware that there was a time in our country that when we faced crisis, our major companies like GM were a big part of the solution. It has been infuriating to watch them degenerate into being simply another part of the problem. For all our sakes they need to get their problems in attitude, in operations and in product line turned around.

 

Well so far I have not been too impressed with GMs "green" initiative. They have been the biggest promoter of "flexfuel" as the solution to our oil crisis, and in all of their ads they totally neglecti to mention the fact that E85 gets only about 70-80% the effeciency of gasoline, at 90% the cost. That is just plain and simple misinformation for the sake of sales.

As far as batteries go, the biggest companies in batteries are Sanyo and Matsushita (Panasonic). Both companies have been busy working on expanding battery technologies since the EV1. Sanyo's Battery division was started as a joint project with Honda, and they made the batteries in the EV1-G1, Matsushita has always been with Toyota. Honda's insight, Honda Civic Hybrids, GM's EV1-G2, and all Toyotas use Matsushita batteries, and Toyota's new battery production plant was built in conjunction with them. Your FEH uses battery packs produced by Sanyo, and uses Toyota technology in its hybrid system. Both companies have been working hard on battery research since before the EV-1 came out since they have both been involved with hybrid systems, and those were first developed at the same time as the EV-1. So the death of the EV-1 has probably not slowed battery development in the least, because GM was never involved with battery development, they just made a car that used them. GM has been more involved with A123, but they are nowhere close to the scale of Matsushita or Sanyo, as they are closer to a research group. In fact GM uses Matsushita batteries in its mild hybrid systems now.

 

Which one of the companies you listed is owned by Chevron/Texaco?

 

Neither, GM uses a whole bunch of battery vendors, one of which is Cobasys. Cobasys is a subsidiary of chevron, and makes that batteries for the Malibu and Aura hybrids. There name may seem really familiar because they were the source of the batteries recalled last week by GM. They are another company that is looking to the a LI contract with GM, along with LG and A123. (there may be more, but I just know of those)

 

I, for one, will be happy to forgive GM for the EV1 decision if...
-- they actually build the Volt well and affordibly
-- they make BAS as effective as IMA and introduce it in some of their smaller vehicles (like Cobalt).

I really don't see a lot of positive environmental gains in selling a handfull of $55k luxury SUVs that have been upgraded from gas guzzlers to erely being gas chuggers. High volume hybrid sales are the way to make a real environmental difference.