Questions about the new Inisght
#1
04-02-2009, 09:46 AM
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Location: Kennedale, TX
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Questions about the new Inisght
Okay before I ask my questions let me state that I used to own a 2001 Insight and a 2003 Prius, and I built my own electric car. So I'm quite knowledgable on this type of thing, but there are some simple questions on the new Insight that I haven't been able to find answers to.
I actually bought a 2010 Insight a few days ago but it will be a week before it gets here so I can't just go out and test it out myself.
First off, does the 2010 Insight use an all-electric air conditioner? or is it the same setup as the original Insight?
Second, What is the story on the EV mode? Does it have one? Under what conditions can you use it? I've read every web page I can find on google and I've seen at least 3 different, conflicting comments about the Insight's EV mode. One review says it has no EV mode and just uses idle-stop feature. Another says it has an EV mode but won't engage unless you are going at least 11 mph. Yet another review says it has an EV mode and engages easily as long as you are going less than 30 mph. And the salesmen that I took a test drive with said the EV mode only works while at highway speeds (which I think is very unlikely)
So.. I realize the original Insight couldn't operate in EV mode at all due to the fact the engine would always be spinning and creating a huge drag. But, I'm told the Honda Civic Hybrid has an EV mode by closing all the valves in the engine to reduce drag. I would imagine this is true for the new Insight as well.
But what is the logic, exactly, of placing the electric motor between the engine and transmission? Why not integrate it into the transmission or put it between the transmission and the differential so that the electric motor always has contact with the wheels while the engine can do whatever it wants? I would think that would make it better for regenerative breaking as well as EV mode.
I actually bought a 2010 Insight a few days ago but it will be a week before it gets here so I can't just go out and test it out myself.
First off, does the 2010 Insight use an all-electric air conditioner? or is it the same setup as the original Insight?
Second, What is the story on the EV mode? Does it have one? Under what conditions can you use it? I've read every web page I can find on google and I've seen at least 3 different, conflicting comments about the Insight's EV mode. One review says it has no EV mode and just uses idle-stop feature. Another says it has an EV mode but won't engage unless you are going at least 11 mph. Yet another review says it has an EV mode and engages easily as long as you are going less than 30 mph. And the salesmen that I took a test drive with said the EV mode only works while at highway speeds (which I think is very unlikely)
So.. I realize the original Insight couldn't operate in EV mode at all due to the fact the engine would always be spinning and creating a huge drag. But, I'm told the Honda Civic Hybrid has an EV mode by closing all the valves in the engine to reduce drag. I would imagine this is true for the new Insight as well.
But what is the logic, exactly, of placing the electric motor between the engine and transmission? Why not integrate it into the transmission or put it between the transmission and the differential so that the electric motor always has contact with the wheels while the engine can do whatever it wants? I would think that would make it better for regenerative breaking as well as EV mode.
#2
04-02-2009, 12:38 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 497
Re: Questions about the new Inisght
1) As I recall the new Insight has the smallest battery of any Honda hybrid so if the new Insight does have EV mode it would be very limited.
2) The high speed thing the dealer was talking about was most likely "fuel cut mode".
3) EV mode on a normal (non-plug in) IMA hybrid is inefficient and darn near useless. This is because the act of charging and discharging the battery is not very efficient. Certainly storing energy that would be wasted to braking is a great idea but over use of the IMA will result in forced charging which is inefficient.
2) The high speed thing the dealer was talking about was most likely "fuel cut mode".
3) EV mode on a normal (non-plug in) IMA hybrid is inefficient and darn near useless. This is because the act of charging and discharging the battery is not very efficient. Certainly storing energy that would be wasted to braking is a great idea but over use of the IMA will result in forced charging which is inefficient.
#3
04-02-2009, 01:00 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 497
Re: Questions about the new Inisght
Original Insight (from Insight Central):
http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl...enbattery.html
2010 Insight (from Honda):
http://automobiles.honda.com/insight...fications.aspx
http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl...enbattery.html
The cells each have a voltage of 1.2v, and are connected in series for a Battery Module terminal voltage of 144V. The Battery Module's rated capacity is 6.5 Ah, resulting in a storage capacity of .936 kWh.
http://automobiles.honda.com/insight...fications.aspx
Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) Battery
Output (Volts) 100.8
Rated Capacity 5.75 Ah
Output (Volts) 100.8
Rated Capacity 5.75 Ah
#4
04-04-2009, 03:48 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Kennedale, TX
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Re: Questions about the new Inisght
Okay, I picked up the 2010 Insight today and now I can answer this question once and for all. YES, it does have EV-Mode. I haven't driven it more than about 20 miles and most of that was on the highway so I haven't had a chance to experiment with it. But it has a little screen showing where power is coming from, electric or gas. More or less just like the prius only it is not in color and the little screen is smaller. Anyway, when I was driving around town several times I saw that the engine was off and not supplying any power to the wheels and the electric motor showed to be propelling the car alone.
As I drive it more, I'll be able to determine exactly when the EV mode is possible and how far it will go.
As I drive it more, I'll be able to determine exactly when the EV mode is possible and how far it will go.
#5
04-04-2009, 04:08 PM
Sales Guru/CarDeal Mentor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 41
Re: Questions about the new Inisght
Okay, I picked up the 2010 Insight today and now I can answer this question once and for all. YES, it does have EV-Mode. I haven't driven it more than about 20 miles and most of that was on the highway so I haven't had a chance to experiment with it. But it has a little screen showing where power is coming from, electric or gas. More or less just like the prius only it is not in color and the little screen is smaller. Anyway, when I was driving around town several times I saw that the engine was off and not supplying any power to the wheels and the electric motor showed to be propelling the car alone.
As I drive it more, I'll be able to determine exactly when the EV mode is possible and how far it will go.
As I drive it more, I'll be able to determine exactly when the EV mode is possible and how far it will go.
EV Mode works as long as the Vehicle has the ECON mode activated and the vehicle stays at or below 35 MILES PER HOUR.
You will see that even during braking - and you do not have to reach a full stop - it will activate as well.
Also, the engine will still be turning - however the valves will close and no fuel will be being pumped into the engine....so sometimes it may seem like the Gas Motor is still on....even though it will not be actually burning any fuel.
This article and link to the full article should answer your questions:
All motor
Just like the current Civic Hybrid, the Insight is capable of shutting down the gas engine and being powered solely by the electric motor in limited circumstances*. Many people, (including leading journalists and even current Civic Hybrid owners) were unaware that the Civic Hybrid possessed this capability. Given the parallel configuration of the Civic's IMA powertrain, this is understandable, since during times of electric-only operation, the driveshaft continues to turn even when the valves are sealed and fuel delivery is cut to the gasoline engine. This means that the tachometer still indicates that the engine is "running". With the Civic Hybrid, the only way to know for sure that the gasoline engine was disabled was to closely monitor the realtime fuel economy meter and the charge/assist indicator. If the fuel economy meter registered a maxed out condition (100mpg) while the charge/assist indicator simultaneously registered that there was an assist condition, then you could be pretty certain that the Civic hybrid was operating in electric-only mode. With the new Multi-information display in the 2010 Insight (on all models), now you can select the appropriate info screen and know with absolute certainty any time the Insight is operating in electric-only mode.
What do you mean by "limited circumstances*"?
Lots of people look at gasoline-hybrids and see the benefits of combining the two methods of propulsion and automatically think "Why not power the car on electricty MORE often for even greater fuel economy?". There's not really a simple answer to that question except to say that at a certain point you reach a prohibitive level of cost, complexity, and/or weight. The IMA motor in the Insight is rather small at a rated output of 13hp (10 kW), so that will naturally limit the ability of the system to propel the Insight solely on electricity. Even more importantly, if you run through a few quick calculations you'll discover that in order for the electric motor to develop its rated 13hp, each 1.2V D-sized cell in the 84-cell battery pack will be required to deliver roughly 100-amperes of current. While the Insight's battery technology permits such massive discharge currents, for the sake of battery longevity, periods of this magnitude of discharge are kept quite brief. Otherwise, the heat generated by a protracted discharge at this rate would rapidly destroy the batteries. Furthermore, if we were theoretically able to ignore the heat issues (which we can't), and if the batteries operated in a perfectly linear discharge fashion (which they don't), the battery pack would only deliver enough juice for a little over 3 minutes at full draw. If you consider what it would take to address these issues, it should quickly answer the above question.
Just like the current Civic Hybrid, the Insight is capable of shutting down the gas engine and being powered solely by the electric motor in limited circumstances*. Many people, (including leading journalists and even current Civic Hybrid owners) were unaware that the Civic Hybrid possessed this capability. Given the parallel configuration of the Civic's IMA powertrain, this is understandable, since during times of electric-only operation, the driveshaft continues to turn even when the valves are sealed and fuel delivery is cut to the gasoline engine. This means that the tachometer still indicates that the engine is "running". With the Civic Hybrid, the only way to know for sure that the gasoline engine was disabled was to closely monitor the realtime fuel economy meter and the charge/assist indicator. If the fuel economy meter registered a maxed out condition (100mpg) while the charge/assist indicator simultaneously registered that there was an assist condition, then you could be pretty certain that the Civic hybrid was operating in electric-only mode. With the new Multi-information display in the 2010 Insight (on all models), now you can select the appropriate info screen and know with absolute certainty any time the Insight is operating in electric-only mode.
What do you mean by "limited circumstances*"?
Lots of people look at gasoline-hybrids and see the benefits of combining the two methods of propulsion and automatically think "Why not power the car on electricty MORE often for even greater fuel economy?". There's not really a simple answer to that question except to say that at a certain point you reach a prohibitive level of cost, complexity, and/or weight. The IMA motor in the Insight is rather small at a rated output of 13hp (10 kW), so that will naturally limit the ability of the system to propel the Insight solely on electricity. Even more importantly, if you run through a few quick calculations you'll discover that in order for the electric motor to develop its rated 13hp, each 1.2V D-sized cell in the 84-cell battery pack will be required to deliver roughly 100-amperes of current. While the Insight's battery technology permits such massive discharge currents, for the sake of battery longevity, periods of this magnitude of discharge are kept quite brief. Otherwise, the heat generated by a protracted discharge at this rate would rapidly destroy the batteries. Furthermore, if we were theoretically able to ignore the heat issues (which we can't), and if the batteries operated in a perfectly linear discharge fashion (which they don't), the battery pack would only deliver enough juice for a little over 3 minutes at full draw. If you consider what it would take to address these issues, it should quickly answer the above question.
http://vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=808565
Last edited by CBondHonda; 04-04-2009 at 04:18 PM.
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