I don't view a cleaner emitting car as a crying shame, at all.

As for the possible trade-off in lower MPG, I would ignore the difference in a qual'd hypermiler hands, and ask instead what the difference is in the prospective buyer's hands.

 

Hi EricGo:

___Until you have seen a steady 80 mpg while in leanburn at highway speeds in an HCH, you may not understand the implications of a maximum 60 - 65 mpg vs. a maximum 80 mpg at steady DWL cruise. Would you today take Bin II and 50 mpg or your current Bin3 at 54.0 mpg? How about Bin5 at 60 mpg!

___If the average driver decides to throw away lean-burn in the current HCH, so be it as that is his or her choice to do so. If said driver decides to use lean burn to get him or her back to the EPA or bury it as a hypermiler would, then there is a huge difference. This is similar to the average driver doing 70 + and one doing 55 + in a 55 - 65 mph zone. Who is emitting more GHG’s when receiving well below the EPA at 70 +? Who is throwing away gallons of fuel (the stuff that nobody is making any more of) at every fill?

___All I am saying is that without lean burn, we may not be see the 70 + mpg tanks that have been achieved with the 03-05’s and that is a crying shame for those that put an all out effort at fuel conservation at LEV-II or better vs. the much cleaner but possibly less fuel efficient SULEV-II.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

I saw this on Temple of VTEC, which isn't a dedicated hybrid forum by any means (most of the posters are fairly leadfooted, as they're interested in performance). However, I saw a post about their moderators / assistants getting "48mpg driving it like a nomal car, not using any tricks at all", and "someone else in their entourage getting 64mpg out of it, but the poster surmised that they were 'trying really hard'". Course was 60mi mixed highway / city. Here's the thread where you can find this:

http://www.templeofvtec.net/forums/o...sage_id=415652

It's toward the end of the first page of the thread, which is a comparison of EX vs hybrid. Some pretty good reading, IMO.

Now these guys aren't 'hypermilers' in any sense...and someone getting 64mpg over 60mi sounds pretty encouraging to me, at least. I'm starting to think 70+ mpg by a 'qualified' person, and that's without the extreme drafting & FAS tricks. With those, maybe... 75+ mpg ? P&G = 80+ ? I'd be thrilled w/ 70+, myself, but I'd reserve the right to incorporate the 'advanced' stuff later.

I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks in any case, but wanted to share this - it's the highest report I've seen yet, over a decent distance.

And yet another "drive the car without care and you'll still net close to EPA" account, as well.

 

Thanks for pointing that out to me; I let those bastards have a piece of my mind.

 

HI; thanks for the heads-up on the other thread. Interesting:

Terry

 

Hi; I took the time and read all the postings on the other thread and also your words of wisdom:

Terry

 

Hi Reynolds:
___To receive 70 + in an HCH-I, you do not need to draft or FAS as Tbaleno and I hit 79 mpg over ~ 70 miles in his CVT based HCH a few weeks ago. I used a FAS ~ every 10 miles. If he would have let me pull out all the stops, I am sure 82 - 83 mpg would have been in the offing before we left the highway. While P&G’ing earlier that day, we averaged > 100 mpg in his CVT based HCH with a 116.x mpg segment as our best. This included one segment with 120.0 + (the HCH’s FCD maxes at 120.0) mpg showing and still traveling at > 30 mph after ~ 2 miles from a dead stop with a reset FCD. We were P&G’ing and FAS’ing through the heart of Chicago and increased our FE from 79.x as we left the tollway to 82.x after another ~ 10 miles and parking in front of his home. Do the math on that last 10 mile segment and it will scare you as to what we actually received while driving stop light to stop light through Chicago city streets. I cannot wait to see the real world results of the 06 HCH-II but there may be a small disappointment from those that know how/can ride the HCH-I’s lean-burn edge 90 + % of the time today …

___The 06 HCH-II will give the average driver its due. Someone will hit 70 + out on the highway without question which is excellent FE but 70 + is not big news. 80 + sustained is. I know the HCH-I can hit 70 + while just driving down the highway and 80 + if all the stops are pulled. In an all-city/suburban environment, the 05 can achieve much more and I suspect the 06 will do the same …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

Hmm...well, you certainly took the raisins out of my cake, didn't you! lol

That is impressive re: 10mpg *increase* for 10mi of city traffic, on top of 79mpg of highway. I'm too lazy to do the calculations, but I know what it represents. Were you drafting a tow truck, with the front wheels in the sling ? Just kidding, of course - but it seems unfathomable to the average person, and I have the feeling you drive much, much differently than the population-at-large. I'll be looking for that HBO program when it's aired to see what you guys do to get that kind of FE.

That being said - 70+ mpg for a member of the PAL would be impressive in it's own right, since they tend to get 30% or more *less* than EPA. So don't discount that - it's likely to let loose the beast in the 'average' person to see how high they can get the mileage, once they get a taste. I'm hoping for that, anyway, although I've got a good headstart - I get right around EPA in my own cars, and none have been hybrids.

So I take a bit of exception to "70+ sustained isn't big news". It is to the average driver, IMHO, and that's what I consider myself. 70+ would be huge for me. I might look for more at some point, but it'd be a helluva start, compared to the 24 or so that I get now.

I'm heartened to hear that you now (?) think the HCH-II will be at least the FE equal of the HCH-I, if I understood you correctly. I'm hoping for a sizable efficiency improvement, in an all-around improved car - but I didn't realize that the current model was capable of the numbers you posted. Again, that's in the hands of the very best FE drivers, of which you are certainly one, based on the posts I've seen.

I look forward to your report on the HCH-II when you get the chance to drive one (but don't belittle us 'little guys' when we 'only' get 70mpg in the car, either...

 

Hi Reynolds:

___I wholeheartedly agree that the 06 HCH-II will do wonders for the average driver and I am not trying to take anything away from it. I can easily see a 2 - 3 mpg increase over the averages the HCH-I has achieved to date. I was thinking more along the lines of Lakedude, Rjbarlow, and Hot_Georgia_2004’s abilities behind the windscreen of an 06 vs. the 03-05 is all. I would include Kenny in this statement but I do not know if the PZEV HCH-I has lean-burn? Although Kenny has a great average, there isn’t a great tank and that is when this idea that the HCH-II may not achieve as high a FE maximum as the HCH-I due to a lack of leanburn when pushed popped into my head … The HCH-I 5-speed’s highway EPA is higher then the HCH-II’s CVT (45-46/51 vs. 50/50) so there is that aspect to consider as well?

___P&G throws lean-burn out the window so in that particular driving mode, the 06 should see even higher FE then the 03-05 CVT or MT HCH-I it is replacing! I just hope Honda has placed an FCD in the HCH-II that can read greater then 120.0 mpg’s because they are going to need it

___Finally, if I had the choice between an 05 HCH MT/CVT or the 06 HCH-II, I would take the 06 in a heartbeat no matter what my thoughts are about its possible maximum FE capabilities

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

I think hot georgia had a video which I downloaded... basically if you go about 40 on flat terrain (possible on rural highways) it's doable. Plus, you need a manual transmission ULEV.