http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=109609



yeow...at least i won't have to worry about one tailling me in the carpool lane!

 

Holy cow. "The gasoline engine collaborates with a new high-output, permanent magnet electric motor-generator rated at 197 hp..."

I want that motor in my Civic...

You know, I bashed this car pretty hard in another thread. However something occurred to me after I read, "Interestingly, our drivers found this hybrid system more refined than earlier such systems...."

There may be a real benefit here of Toyota testing out advanced concepts with a car like this (where the price tag allows some room to be creative and more expensive), and later those lessons learned find their way into more reasonably priced cars. I'm thinking that a 200-hp Celica that gets 40+ MPG would be very cool.

I think the author had a good closing remark too, "I can't help wishing that the wonderful hybrid powertrain in this car had been tuned more toward the economy end of the spectrum since, let's face it, warp-speed acceleration isn't going to make the world a better place to live in. But Lexus is in the business of selling the 2007 GS 450h to its target market, and that group of buyers will be giddy with excitement over this remarkable car and the superior driving experience it offers. "

 

Its great to see hybrid technology being used to improve cars in the traditional sense like with the Lexus in the article.

 

Personally I lean towards panning performance tuned hybrids also,
but allow me to present the opposing argument just for grins:

Think gallons per hundred miles saved and the car looks a lot better:

from 12 to 22 mpg saves 3.8 gallons per hundred miles.
from 30 to 50 mpg saves 1.3 gallons per hundred miles.
from 12 to 14.2 mpg saves as much gas per hundred miles as 30 to 50.

Someone who buys that car over a 12 mpg model will save almost as much
gas as three of us who chose a hybrid civic over a non-hybrid one.

People being what they are, it is a necessary compromise that upscale
car lines must generally position their hybrids as top-of-the-line models (both in
performance and economy) for them to have a chance of selling in volume.
Accord (and probably Camry) are going that route too.

I suspect we can count on the base lines (civic, and hopefully the fit)
remaining econ tuned for now, although they will also stay in the
upper end of the price/equipment range for their respective models.

When FORD's best selling monster SUV's are hybrids that get 18-22 mpg
they will save more gas than all the priuses and HCH's combined.

Go green, bring back the suburban, hybrid only, 500 hp and 18 mpg. :-)

- Kurt

 

OK Kurt, you made me break out Excel...

I like your example - was very interesting. I ran the numbers at 15000 miles, what someone would more likely travel in a year.

12->22 saves 568 gallons
30->50 saves 200 gallons
12->14.2 saves 193 gallons

However, here's my dream: that a 12 mpg SUV owner discovers they don't really need that car to commute to work in, and gets a Civic/Prius.

12->45 saves 916 gallons

To put it in perspective, that will save as much gas in one year than I've used total in the three+ years of owning my HCH I (or close to it - I've use 980 gallons of gas to date @ close to 48K miles).

 

I think that's a warped view of reality. A monster SUV hybrid would still burn 150% more gas driving 100 miles than a Prius or HCH.

 

Sorry about that, I guess it wasn't clear I was mocking the counter
argument while at the same time lamenting the sad reality that
most people will only buy hybrids if it gets them more power.

The other annoying thing is I run across the "SUV's-make-better-hybrids"
viewpoint a lot in car magazines who stress that hybrid technology
is more appropriate for large vehicles (and a waste of money in small
vehicles like the Civic) because it will "save" more far gasoline in the big ones,
and doesn't even pay for itself in the small ones. They are the same
people who advocate thinking in terms of gallons saved per 100 miles.

They kinda have a point, but for what it is worth, I agree with you Elan,
it is a warped point. :-)

The only part I really meant was that given that most people favor
large vehicles with lots of power, even performance tuned hybrid
vehicles are a major win in gas savings over the alternative.
And therefore I will applaud people who buy those over
non-hybrid versions (lukewarm applause maybe, but still applause).

I still grit my teeth every time they claim they are "saving"
more gas than I am however. :-)

 

I'd call it clearly short-sighted. Independent of any other data, if you simply asked the question: if given the choice is it better to drive a 12 mpg or 22 mpg version of a vehicle, clearly the answer is the latter. Is that a good decision, sure. Is it the best possible position, absolutely not. We also have to stay out of the "percentage improvement" trap. Yeah, going from 10 to 20 MPG is a 100% improvement, and going from 30 - 45 is only a 50% improvement, but these are two completely different issues. Going from "really stinky" to just "stinky" is OK, going from "good" to "great" is noteworthy.

I wasn't trying to endorse the 12 -> 22 MPG move as some kind of victory for the planet. Is it better than nothing, sure. Is it a step in the right direction, sure. But like I said in the other thread, I'm not going to be lectured about gas savings or being green from any large hybrid SUV or power-hybrid owner. As per my example, the gas they waste in one year powers my car for more than three.

Making a hybrid vs. non-hybrid decision is good. Evaluating the vehicle you really need in the first place is better.

 

"You don't save the planet with the people you want, you save the planet with the people you have." And those people that we have will continue to be wasteful and drive unnecessarily large and performance-oriented automobiles.

So while I wish people would abandon their SUVs and performance cars for something that saves more gas, yet given that people won't do that for some time, I think that the comparative "gallons of gas saved" argument has merit and makes a very good point.

It also gives hope to people who might otherwise abandon any thought of trying to help our planet by buying a hybrid. "What? You mean I don't have to drive a car shaped like a suppository with a top speed of 23 MPH in order to save gas, help the environment, and ease our dependence on foreign oil? Sign me up."

 

LOL!!!