Iridium130m (Post #95)

You recently wrote ‘Honda won't do anything. They say its a function of the software update and are aware of it. Nice. When drilled further about if they have or can test my battery capacity, again told that Honda has not provided a means to do this and they have to rely on the IMA light.’

I owned a 07 HCH-II and was experiencing numerous recals daily so I often had my vehicle in the shop to correct this problem and I too was told there is no test they can perform to test the IMA battery. Well this my be true, they do not have a specific tester like they do for the 12 volt battery but they do get data about your IMA battery when they plug in the diagnostic computer box.

I have never seen it discussed here but on 3 of my work invoices the technicians put down percentages they found on the IMA data list that they got when the box was connected to my car. Two of the tests showed a State of Charge of 66% and one at 67%. The other number was listed as Usable and here they reported 11%,13% and 16%. When they wrote it on the invoice it was “IMA data list -State of Charge=67% (Usable=11%). No one at the dealership could explain the numbers. (I actually saw this output on the computer screen during 1 test)

Honda America told me the 66/67% represents the charge the IMA held at time of test and it was considered good because around 75% is max. I did not really understand the explanation of the 11,13 and 16% but “think” my understanding is that it is showing the remaining life of the battery. The service manager said the regional rep was a little concerned about the 11% because another vehicle of my year was reporting 70% but Honda did nothing and wrote the same phrase on my work invoice as always “the IMA battery might be deteriorating but not sending codes or DTCs and until a stored DTC can be pulled indicating IMA needs replacing, no replacement authorized by Honda at this time.

Even though I no longer have the 07 HCH-II I am very upset with Honda and how the company is treating the owners of cars having IMA problems. I will try to help all of you from my experience until Honda makes things right with you.

 

to me its ridiculous that Honda has not equipped the dealers with a means to test the capacity of these batteries.

I understand its not like testing a 12V automotive lead acid battery: all we care about there is can the 12V battery push enough amperage to turn over the motor in a short burst.

The IMA battery is completely different.

With the IMA battery, what I care about is can it continuously deliver enough amperage over a period of time to accelerate the car without dropping voltage suddenly. Can it effectively absorb enough energy from the next stop so the car can self-sustain as is advertised on honda's website. Does these attributes happen in a consistent manner?

I would image that honda and other hybrid manufactures would have done the research to understand these amperage versus voltage versus time versus heat power envelopes of these batteries...how else would they trigger the ima light in the event that the battery can no longer perform in a way to sustain the performance of the car? Performance being: acceleration capability, regenerative braking power absorption capabilities, ability to offset the use of the combustion engine to meet EPA ratings in both MPGs and emissions.

What I want is honda to test my IMA battery. Tell me the battery is within some percentage of the original envelope. Just because the battery can produce enough voltage and amperage to start and run the car DOES NOT mean it is in adequate condition to meet the originally engineered performance characteristics that the car was sold with. If the battery is only performing at 25% of the original envelope, it may have not completely failed, but it is no longer adequate for a hybrid vehicle (hence why the power companies are snapping up used battery packs because the envelope is great for them, slow steady power drains and recharges vs. rapid drains and recharges in the hybrid).

What I don't appreciate is when I call honda customer service and their official line is that there is no failure becuase the car starts and the car runs, and its acting just like the letter says it will act. Thats absurd.

Riddle me this: say my non hybrid car under warranty feels down on power when its hot out. Maybe even the check engine light comes on. I take it in and its discovered that only 3 of the 4 cylinders are firing.

It starts.

It runs.

Not withing specs.

Now say that honda (or ANY manufactures) discovers the only way to repair faulty cylinder is to replace the entire engine. So instead diagnosing and repairing the issue, they release a software update that deactivates the faulty cylinder when it is hot to protect the life of the engine, and a letter that says that reduced power is now normal, and they shut the check engine light off in the software because the letter says this situation is normal.

Is this ok? Is this the car that I test drove and purchased? Is it operating within the original Specs?

NO. Its not acceptable.

How is this recall with our battery packs ANY DIFFERENT????

The difference may be that honda is hoping the hide behind the fact that hybrids are a newer technology and the manufacturer here in this case it using the "mystery" of the new technology to mask the defects here.

 

Yes, its been really hot here in the Midwest this year, 100+ days sustained. Never had the battery pack replaced. IMA light on once at like 39K miles approx due to motor rotor sensor failure, common in the 07s evidently. Not replaced under warranty, but Honda supposedly ate some of the cost because I complained.

Every summer car has been progressively worse, that was why I tried to get it fixed yet again. Didn't even know about the recall when i took the car in.

Not sure how evil Mr. Hyde will be next summer... but I am enjoying Dr. Jekyll today as its only in the 70's here and the car is actually quite peppy with the new software update in the cooler weather and 93 octane gas. I've got to borrow my buddies scan gauge to see what kind of timings they are running on the motor now, they've got to be more aggressive now, not sure where else the new found power has come from.

 

Thanks for the update. My hybrid battery pack was replaced at about 55,000 miles and the performance of the car returned to near normal, but not completely. It used to be fairly easy to get 51 MPG with a bit of hyper miler effort, and its tougher now.

California is the real battleground, because they required Honda to warranty the battery pack for 150,000 miles. So under the original software its conceivable that Honda would have to replace the hybrid battery pack three times under warranty.

The car is not about new technology in my opinion; it's about interim technology. The bugaboo is that the batteries simply don't last. The software eliminates or greatly lessens the chance of an IMA light to appear. All California has to do is test complainants batteries and compare to a lack of IMA light/code whatever. A failing battery and no IMA light is going to mean trouble for Honda at the end of the day, and there is too much attention to this in the media for Honda to duck for long. HOnda is having the same discussions we are having except from a different perspective. The update was a mistake, just like Sony Media's "root kit" stuff. They need to cancel the update and ask anyone who updated to breing in the car for a reversion to the previous software release. Until then, this is going to get very ugly.

The only question for me is whether I want to pony up for a new battery the next time it fails. The car otherwise has been as advertised and has a very low operating cost. My dealership service has been very good I must say again. The irony in this is that good dealers are going to get hurt by Honda's initiative on this. That's not right.

 

So I got this update today (along with an oil change and state inspection). I've only driven it home so very tiny sample size. Off the bat I noticed the update knocks off a few bars of assist at my normal acceleration however it only feels just a tiny bit sluggish. I figured it'd be more pronounced but I can definately live with this. Other than that I didn't notice much.

So background on my car. It's an '06 and the only update it got was back when we had the battery cover recall. After about a year or so of ownership I started to see my first battery crashes. Always predictable though, usually on Monday or Tuesday because I drive all of 6 miles over the weekend (short trip to the grocery store); though in the summer sometimes it skips a week. Driving on wet roads also pretty much guarantees a crash or minimum drop to 4 bars and a low grade forced regen at the start. Since my work place is only 7 miles away and the AC there is set really cold I don't use AC on my trip home even if it is 104 like it has been lately. But if I turned the AC on; guaranteed battery crash inside 3 miles.

It's been doing these types of crashes for at least 2 years with consistency so we'll see. I keep my tires at 50psi and they're now 4 years old. With just a year of tread left I've gotten as high as 67mpg in the mornings and have ended plenty of days with 56-58mpg for my 14 mile round trip commute. Knock off about 12-15mpg for the winter months and my lifetime average is about 49mpg so I'm not complaining so far. Will update some more after I get some miles under this update.

 

Well got my first battery dump after the update. Unusual in timing but I'll chalk it up to having work done on the car 2 days ago. Charge up time was about the same as the other times, usual ~20% hit to mpg on the trip (ended up with 48mpg which I should be able to pull up to 50mpg traffic willing on the way home). Yesterday I was able to get the usual mpg on a full round trip commute.

 

Just finished my first tank with the new software. Actually, I drive about 100 miles with the old, and then an additional 440.2 with the new.

I noticed once that after a lengthy hill, and then hunting for parking for 10 minutes, that I had no assist from the next full stop (which was kinda scary, never felt that before) but other than that it has been smooth sailing. Before the update my average tank was 46-49, this tank hit 52!

For my driving style and needs, (almost no city stop and go) it is working great. This was in 95F mostly, and I always leave it in full AC auto mode @ 72F

 

I have a 2006 Hybrid Civic and got the software update two weeks ago hoping that it would stop the 1-2 daily crashes of my IMA battery. The frequent discharging of my IMA battery has continued with the new software update but it is triggered at 2-3 bars rather than 1 bar and I get less electrical asst at 3-4 bars.

I strongly suspect the IMA battery is defective and I'm taking the car back to the dealer and considering filing a complaint.

 

It could be your recalibrations are continuing as they were before the update. At least in my Canadian notice, there's the following:

I've got a hunch Honda's idea of "more accuracy" is to display higher state-of-charge than previous, for the same actual levels. So, the state-of-charge may not have changed (much), and the recals are happening at the same threshold, but the display is showing higher.

FWIW, we got the update mid-week, and I finally got a bit of driving in today. I'm not seeing a lot of difference, maybe:

1. Displayed state-of-charge tends to be higher.

2. Number of assist bars a bit lower, and more instances of gentle acceleration resulting in no assist bars.

3. More recal behaviors at 2~3 bars (per your observation).

Mileage/performance does not seem to be suffering, so I would give the update a cautious thumbs-up. My one concern is that at least part of the software revisions might be aimed at suppressing IMA lights going on, with borderline ailing batteries. Just a paranoid hunch.

 

It's not an issue of paranoia, it's fact. If you read Honda's responses to requests for battery replacements in cases of performance failure, they are now saying no way unless the IMA light is on. ( regardless of battery condition which can be measured).

Folks reporting difficulties now are beyond where the light would have illuminated prior to the software update.

Older posts are fraught with IMA light illumination followed by battery replacement.