Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
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Dino oil 2 expensive!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
From: Seattle
Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
Hi all. First post and question. I've had my '08 MMH since September and have about 2,500 miles on it. I've read everything on the forum about MPG, as well as threads at other sites about hypermiling. I have tried all of the different techiques people have talked about and nothing seems to make any difference in my MPG. Since getting the Mariner, my MPG history has been 26.1, 25.6, 27.9, 25.2, 26.7, 26.4, and 26.2.
The 27.9 was an anomoly since I did not top off the tank, which I usually do. I always calculate MPG manually as it is more reliable. The MPG displayed on the nav system always seems to vary from true MPG by 2 to 5 MPG.
I can baby an entire tankful of gas, using pulse and glide, coasting in neutral, false shifts, etc. or I can drive an entire tankful like I used to drive my previous SUV. Regardless of the technique I use, the MPG comes out at 26 MPG every time. It is very frustrating to be following all of the advice and getting no results while reading the incredible MPG success stories here.
Have I just not allowed enough break-in time? Am I doing these techniques all wrong -- are they that tricky? Is my vehicle not working properly? I don't have a clue. Any advice or other things to try would be appreciated. Has anyone else had the same experience as me?
Some background on my car and driving style.
o '08 MMH 4WD with the nav system package
o I drive about 60% local suburban roads at 25 to 50 mph and 40%
highway at an average of 65mph
o I usually drive the speed limit up to 5mph over
o I coast when at speed and try to keep RPM under 2000
o I always have the a/c or heater in economy mode. I turn the
defroster on only when needed and turn it off once the windshield
is clear
o Have not increased air pressure in tires since taking delivery
-- i.e., running stock pressure
o I live in the north Seattle area so the terrain is rolling hills.
o Behavior of when ICE kicks in seems consistent with what other people
report. Usually see ICE start at 12 to 20 MPH. Starts sooner under
load, like going up a slight incline. Starting out downhill, I can keep it in
EV mode until 30-35mph, sometimes 40.
Any thoughts? Am I destined to always be stuck at 26MPG? It is better than the 17MPG I got with my previous vehicle, but I want more.
Thanks,
Frank
The 27.9 was an anomoly since I did not top off the tank, which I usually do. I always calculate MPG manually as it is more reliable. The MPG displayed on the nav system always seems to vary from true MPG by 2 to 5 MPG.
I can baby an entire tankful of gas, using pulse and glide, coasting in neutral, false shifts, etc. or I can drive an entire tankful like I used to drive my previous SUV. Regardless of the technique I use, the MPG comes out at 26 MPG every time. It is very frustrating to be following all of the advice and getting no results while reading the incredible MPG success stories here.
Have I just not allowed enough break-in time? Am I doing these techniques all wrong -- are they that tricky? Is my vehicle not working properly? I don't have a clue. Any advice or other things to try would be appreciated. Has anyone else had the same experience as me?
Some background on my car and driving style.
o '08 MMH 4WD with the nav system package
o I drive about 60% local suburban roads at 25 to 50 mph and 40%
highway at an average of 65mph
o I usually drive the speed limit up to 5mph over
o I coast when at speed and try to keep RPM under 2000
o I always have the a/c or heater in economy mode. I turn the
defroster on only when needed and turn it off once the windshield
is clear
o Have not increased air pressure in tires since taking delivery
-- i.e., running stock pressure
o I live in the north Seattle area so the terrain is rolling hills.
o Behavior of when ICE kicks in seems consistent with what other people
report. Usually see ICE start at 12 to 20 MPH. Starts sooner under
load, like going up a slight incline. Starting out downhill, I can keep it in
EV mode until 30-35mph, sometimes 40.
Any thoughts? Am I destined to always be stuck at 26MPG? It is better than the 17MPG I got with my previous vehicle, but I want more.
Thanks,
Frank
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,468
From: Jupiter, FL
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
Hi all. First post and question. I've had my '08 MMH since September and have about 2,500 miles on it. I've read everything on the forum about MPG, as well as threads at other sites about hypermiling. I have tried all of the different techiques people have talked about and nothing seems to make any difference in my MPG. Since getting the Mariner, my MPG history has been 26.1, 25.6, 27.9, 25.2, 26.7, 26.4, and 26.2.
The 27.9 was an anomoly since I did not top off the tank, which I usually do. I always calculate MPG manually as it is more reliable. The MPG displayed on the nav system always seems to vary from true MPG by 2 to 5 MPG.
I can baby an entire tankful of gas, using pulse and glide, coasting in neutral, false shifts, etc. or I can drive an entire tankful like I used to drive my previous SUV. Regardless of the technique I use, the MPG comes out at 26 MPG every time. It is very frustrating to be following all of the advice and getting no results while reading the incredible MPG success stories here.
Have I just not allowed enough break-in time? Am I doing these techniques all wrong -- are they that tricky? Is my vehicle not working properly? I don't have a clue. Any advice or other things to try would be appreciated. Has anyone else had the same experience as me?
Some background on my car and driving style.
o '08 MMH 4WD with the nav system package
o I drive about 60% local suburban roads at 25 to 50 miles per hour and 40%
highway at an average of 65mph
o I usually drive the speed limit up to 5mph over
o I coast when at speed and try to keep RPM under 2000
o I always have the a/c or heater in economy mode. I turn the
defroster on only when needed and turn it off once the windshield
is clear
o Have not increased air pressure in tires since taking delivery
-- i.e., running stock pressure
o I live in the north Seattle area so the terrain is rolling hills.
o Behavior of when ICE kicks in seems consistent with what other people
report. Usually see ICE start at 12 to 20 miles per hour. Starts sooner under
load, like going up a slight incline. Starting out downhill, I can keep it in
EV mode until 30-35mph, sometimes 40.
Any thoughts? Am I destined to always be stuck at 26MPG? It is better than the 17MPG I got with my previous vehicle, but I want more.
Thanks,
Frank
The 27.9 was an anomoly since I did not top off the tank, which I usually do. I always calculate MPG manually as it is more reliable. The MPG displayed on the nav system always seems to vary from true MPG by 2 to 5 MPG.
I can baby an entire tankful of gas, using pulse and glide, coasting in neutral, false shifts, etc. or I can drive an entire tankful like I used to drive my previous SUV. Regardless of the technique I use, the MPG comes out at 26 MPG every time. It is very frustrating to be following all of the advice and getting no results while reading the incredible MPG success stories here.
Have I just not allowed enough break-in time? Am I doing these techniques all wrong -- are they that tricky? Is my vehicle not working properly? I don't have a clue. Any advice or other things to try would be appreciated. Has anyone else had the same experience as me?
Some background on my car and driving style.
o '08 MMH 4WD with the nav system package
o I drive about 60% local suburban roads at 25 to 50 miles per hour and 40%
highway at an average of 65mph
o I usually drive the speed limit up to 5mph over
o I coast when at speed and try to keep RPM under 2000
o I always have the a/c or heater in economy mode. I turn the
defroster on only when needed and turn it off once the windshield
is clear
o Have not increased air pressure in tires since taking delivery
-- i.e., running stock pressure
o I live in the north Seattle area so the terrain is rolling hills.
o Behavior of when ICE kicks in seems consistent with what other people
report. Usually see ICE start at 12 to 20 miles per hour. Starts sooner under
load, like going up a slight incline. Starting out downhill, I can keep it in
EV mode until 30-35mph, sometimes 40.
Any thoughts? Am I destined to always be stuck at 26MPG? It is better than the 17MPG I got with my previous vehicle, but I want more.
Thanks,
Frank
The fact that your not taking the advise of raising your tire pressure tells me you don't really want more. Calculating your mileage with the gas you add at fill-up is another mistake because of the shape of the tank. Get a SG11 and monitor your mileage every trip and keep an eye on your tank average everyday. Your flying blind with these techniques without gauges and the knowledge how to use them.
The Nav system can give you more information than you know right now. Until you get real serious and get a SG11, try resetting the average MPG at each segment of a drive. This will help you monitor what works , and what doesn't. Also, you understand that short trips under 5 miles is bad even with the best hypermilers. We take less of a hit, and try to average it out on the longer trips.
The FEH/MMH learns good driving habits as well as bad driving habits with its Keep Alive Memory (KAM). Teach it good driving habits all the time, not just hit and miss. This means also stay with the same regular fuel without ethanol or additives if possible. The fuel injectors are self cleaning, so don't add gas with things that claim will keep your engine injectors clean.
That said, it's going to get colder now and you need to consider things learned here that will help lessen that hit. If you don't fully understand any of the techniques, just ask the question because everyone will benefit.
GaryG
Active Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 155
From: Denver Area, CO
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
Hey fcolliga,
First, I think patience is in order. My mileage didn't pick up until maybe 5000, and I think it was me more than the vehicle. I would expect you got get between 28 and 30 in Seattle, unless you are a successful (read nutty) hypermiler.
As far as driving style, I would recommend some fairly simple methods.
1. Don't accelerate rapidly. That is, keep it in the 2000 - 2800 rpm range.
2. Don't accelerate too slowly. See above.
3. Don't drive aggressively.
4. Instead of the classical pulse and glide, try to back off the throttle to the point that just maintains your speed. You may need to re-accelerate some, but you will find that there is a fairly large range of throttle input that maintains your speed.
5. Don't drive aggressively. Did I repeat myself?
Patience is a virtue, and it increases your mileage.
The posted methods for hypermiling are great and all, but are sometimes more trouble than they are worth (to me). And some of them seem dangerous to me. I will say, though, following a group of vehicles, or a truck at a reasonable distance on the freeway does make a difference. Always passing, or being in the lead definitely hurts your mileage.
Good luck!
First, I think patience is in order. My mileage didn't pick up until maybe 5000, and I think it was me more than the vehicle. I would expect you got get between 28 and 30 in Seattle, unless you are a successful (read nutty) hypermiler.
As far as driving style, I would recommend some fairly simple methods.
1. Don't accelerate rapidly. That is, keep it in the 2000 - 2800 rpm range.
2. Don't accelerate too slowly. See above.
3. Don't drive aggressively.
4. Instead of the classical pulse and glide, try to back off the throttle to the point that just maintains your speed. You may need to re-accelerate some, but you will find that there is a fairly large range of throttle input that maintains your speed.
5. Don't drive aggressively. Did I repeat myself?
Patience is a virtue, and it increases your mileage.The posted methods for hypermiling are great and all, but are sometimes more trouble than they are worth (to me). And some of them seem dangerous to me. I will say, though, following a group of vehicles, or a truck at a reasonable distance on the freeway does make a difference. Always passing, or being in the lead definitely hurts your mileage.
Good luck!
Prof. of Hybridology
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,070
From: Michigan
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
Welcome Frank.
Hmm. Sounds more than a bit frustrating. A few key notes, if you don't mind:
1. Raise those tire pressures. Run them at 40 PSI to start out with. Monitor them carefully; check about once a month to be sure they stay at 40 PSI.
2. Are you red light rushing? That is, are you trying to keep in the flow of traffic and rushing up to red lights, causing you to burn gas to get to them, then waste that energy coming to a complete stop, then burning more gas to get back up to speed? If so, stop it now!
3. Try watching the tach for a while, and do everything you can (via fake shifts or whatever) to keep the tach around 2K and under 2.5K unless absolutely necessary. Give up on going 5 MPH over unless the lights in your area are timed for that speed.
4. Give up on P&G'ing for now. Utilize the basics and get used to the vehicle and its operations first, besides, either you're doing it wrong or it's not working for you anyway.
5. Seattle sucks for MPGs, as is my understanding, as nearly everyone who goes there has reduced MPGs, so don't delude yourself into thinking Seattle is going to be where you get record MPGs. However, not being able to break 30 MPG does seem rather low.
6. Try relaxing, but still embracing some of the techniques. Work on the little stuff first, enjoy the ride, and do those little smart things (no Jackrabbit starts, no red light rushing, no speeding, etc.) and see where that gets you.
7. You didn't mention your average commute length. Remember, you want to drive it as much as possible when you drive it, combine those errands. Go to the farthest place first unless there's a demand to stop elsewhere first. Short commutes kill MPGs.
8. Keep in mind that weather and winds can also play a part in MPGs. As it gets colder, your MPGs are going to drop. With incliment weather, your MPGs drop. In a headwind, your MPGs will drop.
Hmm. Sounds more than a bit frustrating. A few key notes, if you don't mind:
1. Raise those tire pressures. Run them at 40 PSI to start out with. Monitor them carefully; check about once a month to be sure they stay at 40 PSI.
2. Are you red light rushing? That is, are you trying to keep in the flow of traffic and rushing up to red lights, causing you to burn gas to get to them, then waste that energy coming to a complete stop, then burning more gas to get back up to speed? If so, stop it now!
3. Try watching the tach for a while, and do everything you can (via fake shifts or whatever) to keep the tach around 2K and under 2.5K unless absolutely necessary. Give up on going 5 MPH over unless the lights in your area are timed for that speed.
4. Give up on P&G'ing for now. Utilize the basics and get used to the vehicle and its operations first, besides, either you're doing it wrong or it's not working for you anyway.
5. Seattle sucks for MPGs, as is my understanding, as nearly everyone who goes there has reduced MPGs, so don't delude yourself into thinking Seattle is going to be where you get record MPGs. However, not being able to break 30 MPG does seem rather low.
6. Try relaxing, but still embracing some of the techniques. Work on the little stuff first, enjoy the ride, and do those little smart things (no Jackrabbit starts, no red light rushing, no speeding, etc.) and see where that gets you.
7. You didn't mention your average commute length. Remember, you want to drive it as much as possible when you drive it, combine those errands. Go to the farthest place first unless there's a demand to stop elsewhere first. Short commutes kill MPGs.
8. Keep in mind that weather and winds can also play a part in MPGs. As it gets colder, your MPGs are going to drop. With incliment weather, your MPGs drop. In a headwind, your MPGs will drop.
Thread Starter
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Dino oil 2 expensive!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
From: Seattle
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
1. Raise those tire pressures. Run them at 40 PSI to start out with. Monitor them carefully; check about once a month to be sure they stay at 40 PSI.
This is the one major thing I just have not done yet. I will have to look at this this weekend and see what difference it makes.
2. Are you red light rushing?
No. I have been driving very conservatively, coasting up to lights and not rushing. My normal driving habit is to coast and cover the brake pedal as I approach a light. Once in a while (maybe once a week) I might rush to get through a light before it changes, but that is not the norm for me.
3. Try watching the tach for a while, and do everything you can (via fake shifts or whatever) to keep the tach around 2K and under 2.5K unless absolutely necessary. Give up on going 5 miles per hour over unless the lights in your area are timed for that speed.
I've been working a lot on keeping the RPMs near or under 2k. Use false shifts as needed to bring it back down.
4. Give up on P&G'ing for now. Utilize the basics and get used to the vehicle and its operations first, besides, either you're doing it wrong or it's not working for you anyway.
Yes. I find it more trouble than it is worth. Mostly, I concentrate on conservative driving, gentle starts, coasting downhill and up to lights, etc.
5. Seattle sucks for MPGs, as is my understanding, as nearly everyone who goes there has reduced MPGs, so don't delude yourself into thinking Seattle is going to be where you get record MPGs. However, not being able to break 30 MPG does seem rather low.
I'm starting to suspect that geographic location is a large factor.
6. Try relaxing, but still embracing some of the techniques. Work on the little stuff first, enjoy the ride, and do those little smart things (no Jackrabbit starts, no red light rushing, no speeding, etc.) and see where that gets you.
This is what I've settled into as my daily routine. They are the easiest and smartest things to do it seems.
7. You didn't mention your average commute length. Remember, you want to drive it as much as possible when you drive it, combine those errands. Go to the farthest place first unless there's a demand to stop elsewhere first. Short commutes kill MPGs.
Daily commute to work is only 2 miles, so I know I am going to lose some MPGs here. At lunch I go out to eat, usually driving 5-10 miles in each direction. Almost all other trips are Saturday/Sunday shopping trips (combined errands to multiple locations) where we stay out for 4 or 5 hours. Weekends are also where I drive almost all of my highway miles.
8. Keep in mind that weather and winds can also play a part in MPGs. As it gets colder, your MPGs are going to drop. With incliment weather, your MPGs drop. In a headwind, your MPGs will drop.
Yep. I understand all of this. Though it is interesting that I have seen no change since early September when average temps have dropped from 65 to 45/50. The lowest we have seen around here so far is about 35. However, in this area it rarely gets below 30 and when it does it does not last long.
Active Enthusiast
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 99
From: Golden Valley, MN
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
I'm kind of wondering if it just may be possible that your techniques are getting better by exactly the same amount of effect that the temperature is having on the MPG - they're just canceling each other out.
Have you tried using low gear more under 40 miles per hour? I've found that has been making a big difference since I started using it a little while ago (which isn't saying much really, since I've only got 600 miles on my FEH and am on my second tank, so there's lots of room for other factors to be in the mix). It gets a bigger charge into the battery faster when you need it, and it's easier to get it into EV mode. And I've noticed in just the last couple of days that I'm able to accelerate a bit harder before the ICE kicks in in EV than I was at first, and I can hold it in EV at a little bit higher speed than I could last week, although I think I contribute that more to it breaking in than my techniques getting better - but it could be both !!
Have you tried using low gear more under 40 miles per hour? I've found that has been making a big difference since I started using it a little while ago (which isn't saying much really, since I've only got 600 miles on my FEH and am on my second tank, so there's lots of room for other factors to be in the mix). It gets a bigger charge into the battery faster when you need it, and it's easier to get it into EV mode. And I've noticed in just the last couple of days that I'm able to accelerate a bit harder before the ICE kicks in in EV than I was at first, and I can hold it in EV at a little bit higher speed than I could last week, although I think I contribute that more to it breaking in than my techniques getting better - but it could be both !!
Last edited by chesterakl; Nov 6, 2007 at 06:04 PM.
Active Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 175
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
The #1 factor in both my hybrid's mpg is tire pressure. Who needs a tire pressure monitor when the mpg indicator on the dash lets you know asap that they are probably low.
Give your tires a check and slightly inflate them more than the stock pressure but of course well under the max tire pressure listed on the sidewall.
good luck.
Give your tires a check and slightly inflate them more than the stock pressure but of course well under the max tire pressure listed on the sidewall.
good luck.
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,747
From: Southwestern Pa
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
If I read this correctly, you live in the Northwest (Seattle) and have AWD. Is it correct to say rain is a common day to day experience in Seattle at this time of the year? If this is true, then it might be possible that your vehicle is going into and out of AWD on a regular basis (due to rain induced slick pavement). This can cause a hit on your milage. I have an AWD vehicle and have experienced a hit in fuel milage during rain-rain storms and slick roads. I image this will also be true during snow covered roadways.
The other item that caught my attention was your short daily commute--2 miles one way to work and 5 miles at lunch time. Our experienced posters have commented previously that short commutes such as this will not allow your hybrid to reach its potential fuel efficiency. I also have a short 4-5 mile commute and can not match the figures posted by many others on this site due to this. On the weekends, my milage improves significantly.
The other item that caught my attention was your short daily commute--2 miles one way to work and 5 miles at lunch time. Our experienced posters have commented previously that short commutes such as this will not allow your hybrid to reach its potential fuel efficiency. I also have a short 4-5 mile commute and can not match the figures posted by many others on this site due to this. On the weekends, my milage improves significantly.
Last edited by Billyk; Nov 6, 2007 at 06:24 PM. Reason: grammer
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 881
From: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
I can't believe that only salsbr posted the obvious reason.
Your vehicle is not yet "broken in". Nothing you do will make the slightest difference for the first few thousand miles. You will likely see a gradual increase once you hit 3,000 and better as you get to 5,000. Even the manual says not to look at your fuel economy for the first xxxx miles.
That's not to say you shouldn't try as you will learn the techniques for when it does matter.
Your vehicle is not yet "broken in". Nothing you do will make the slightest difference for the first few thousand miles. You will likely see a gradual increase once you hit 3,000 and better as you get to 5,000. Even the manual says not to look at your fuel economy for the first xxxx miles.
That's not to say you shouldn't try as you will learn the techniques for when it does matter.
Omnia Gloria Fugit
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 744
From: College Station Texas
Re: Tried Everything I've Read - MPG Doesn't Budge
Daily commute to work is only 2 miles
