Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 881
From: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
I don't know why anyone would say that I couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't choose a Hybrid over the non-Hybrid to save money. I did. The numbers don't lie. Of course, if you try to compare a Hybrid SUV vs a Honda Civic or Ford Escort, well then of course there is no financial savings. However, I am not comparing the Mercury Mariner to either of these sub compact cars. I am comparing apples to apples as they say. Same vehicle, Hybrid vs Non. According to my math, and I was always good at math, the fuel economy should render the premium price nil at 32 months. Even if we only kept this vehicle for 3 yrs it still makes financial sense.
If you still feel the need to compare apples to oranges let's throw some other facts into the selection process.
1. I am 6'7" - 240lbs. I'm not fitting in a Honda Civic or Ford Escort. I barely fit in any mid-size SUV's for that matter. That was 90% of the reason we looked at the FEH and MMH in the first place as it was one of 2 vehicles I was comfortable in...and the other wouldn't fit in my garage without doing some Austin Powers moves (ML 350).
2. We have a 6 month old son and not only would I rather have him in a slightly larger vehicle, I also have to be able to get him in and out of the back seat without destroying my back.
3. By purchasing a Hybrid vehicle, I feel that we are not only "doing the environmental thing" but we are also sending the message to automakers, the government, and the oil industry that people are not interested in being oil dependant forever and that we need new technologies. It is the same reason we voluntarily pay a little bit more for a portion of our electric supply to be purchased from wind energy companies.
If you still feel the need to compare apples to oranges let's throw some other facts into the selection process.
1. I am 6'7" - 240lbs. I'm not fitting in a Honda Civic or Ford Escort. I barely fit in any mid-size SUV's for that matter. That was 90% of the reason we looked at the FEH and MMH in the first place as it was one of 2 vehicles I was comfortable in...and the other wouldn't fit in my garage without doing some Austin Powers moves (ML 350).
2. We have a 6 month old son and not only would I rather have him in a slightly larger vehicle, I also have to be able to get him in and out of the back seat without destroying my back.
3. By purchasing a Hybrid vehicle, I feel that we are not only "doing the environmental thing" but we are also sending the message to automakers, the government, and the oil industry that people are not interested in being oil dependant forever and that we need new technologies. It is the same reason we voluntarily pay a little bit more for a portion of our electric supply to be purchased from wind energy companies.
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,401
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
I have only one comment... Why doesn't anyone ask someone buying a Ford Mustang how they are going to "recoup their price difference"?
We don't make our choices entirely on cost! No one does! If they did we'd all be riding moped! They are cheaper AND better on gas!
And hey if you are 6'7" you don't even have to worry about hitting your head on the roof....
[the pavement might be a different story]
We don't make our choices entirely on cost! No one does! If they did we'd all be riding moped! They are cheaper AND better on gas!
And hey if you are 6'7" you don't even have to worry about hitting your head on the roof....
[the pavement might be a different story]
Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 42
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
Originally Posted by GeneT
If these questions have been answered elsewhere, please feel free to just post a link...
Has anyone calculated the number of years it would take to recoup the price difference between the Escape Hybrid and non-Hybrid with the gas savings?
In other words, maybe I'm missing something, but by my (and my co-worker's) calculation, it would take about 7.5 years to pay off the difference from the price of the Hybrid vs. non-Hybrid. Here are the values we're using:
Miles/Month - 1000
Gas/Gallon - $2.75
Escape non-hybrid
Price - $22,000
MPG (avg) - 19
Gallons/Month - 52.63
Cost/Month - $144.74
Cost/Year - $1,736.84
Escape hybrid
Price - $30,000
MPG (avg) - 33
Gallons/Month - 30.30
Cost/Month - $83.33
Cost/Year - $1,000
If you throw those values in a spreadsheet and do some simple calculations, you get the following:
Price Difference (amount to recoup) - $8,000
Years to recoup (w/o tax credit) - 10.86
Years to recoup (w/ tax credit) - 7.33
Am I completely missing something or will I not only be paying more per month for the car loan (due to it costs more) but it'll also take me over 2 years after the loan is payed off before I'll begin to see the advantage of the hybrid? Sure, I'll save roughly $61.40 per month on gas, but I'll likely pay that and then some on the car payment.
Don't get me wrong, I've only started researching hybrids very recently and I am trying to convince myself (and my coworker) why it would be beneficial...of course, other than the obvious environmental impact...but right now, that's all I have on my side.
Any advice would be very helpful.
Thanks!
Has anyone calculated the number of years it would take to recoup the price difference between the Escape Hybrid and non-Hybrid with the gas savings?
In other words, maybe I'm missing something, but by my (and my co-worker's) calculation, it would take about 7.5 years to pay off the difference from the price of the Hybrid vs. non-Hybrid. Here are the values we're using:
Miles/Month - 1000
Gas/Gallon - $2.75
Escape non-hybrid
Price - $22,000
MPG (avg) - 19
Gallons/Month - 52.63
Cost/Month - $144.74
Cost/Year - $1,736.84
Escape hybrid
Price - $30,000
MPG (avg) - 33
Gallons/Month - 30.30
Cost/Month - $83.33
Cost/Year - $1,000
If you throw those values in a spreadsheet and do some simple calculations, you get the following:
Price Difference (amount to recoup) - $8,000
Years to recoup (w/o tax credit) - 10.86
Years to recoup (w/ tax credit) - 7.33
Am I completely missing something or will I not only be paying more per month for the car loan (due to it costs more) but it'll also take me over 2 years after the loan is payed off before I'll begin to see the advantage of the hybrid? Sure, I'll save roughly $61.40 per month on gas, but I'll likely pay that and then some on the car payment.
Don't get me wrong, I've only started researching hybrids very recently and I am trying to convince myself (and my coworker) why it would be beneficial...of course, other than the obvious environmental impact...but right now, that's all I have on my side.
Any advice would be very helpful.
Thanks!
aloha,
ellie
Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 42
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
Originally Posted by snax
While I applaud your motivation to drive something cleaner, in my opinion, purchasing a new car to be driven so few miles was a mistake economically if you intend to unload it in just 3 years. You will lose significant value on ANY new car under those conditions. So your circumstances don't really make an effective case for or against a hybrid so much as against purchasing new.
There is an excellent article in the June/July issue of Home Power magazine that does a very effective summary of the cost/benefits of hybrid vs. non. And while tax credits help to expedite the payoff period for the additional cost, it's pretty clear that holding a hybrid for just 3 years isn't likely to save you much if any money vs. the non-hybrid.
If however you plan to hold onto the vehicle for ten years, which many environmentally and financially conscious people will likely do, a FEH driven 20,000 miles/year will net an estimated $7800 in savings over that period. That estimation also takes into account a projected $3000 battery replacement at 100,000 miles (which many people seem to believe may be a pessimistic projection of the battery service life). In other words, net savings could approach $11000 or more at the end of ten years barring having to replace the batteries. Now compare that to projected resale value of a comparable non-hybrid at that time, and it's a safe bet you will have earned your money back in spades.
There is an excellent article in the June/July issue of Home Power magazine that does a very effective summary of the cost/benefits of hybrid vs. non. And while tax credits help to expedite the payoff period for the additional cost, it's pretty clear that holding a hybrid for just 3 years isn't likely to save you much if any money vs. the non-hybrid.
If however you plan to hold onto the vehicle for ten years, which many environmentally and financially conscious people will likely do, a FEH driven 20,000 miles/year will net an estimated $7800 in savings over that period. That estimation also takes into account a projected $3000 battery replacement at 100,000 miles (which many people seem to believe may be a pessimistic projection of the battery service life). In other words, net savings could approach $11000 or more at the end of ten years barring having to replace the batteries. Now compare that to projected resale value of a comparable non-hybrid at that time, and it's a safe bet you will have earned your money back in spades.
aloha,
ellie
Active Enthusiast
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 160
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
Well unfortunately the replacement cost of the batteries is the author's estimation, so take that for what it's worth. I should recant the $7800 savings a bit however, as that does figure in both the federal and Oregon state tax credits. Pull those out of the formula and it works out to around $4400 saved. When adjusted for inflation it's really even less than that - with the payoff period being somewhere around the 7th year vs. just after 3 years with the tax credits applied.
What the author of the article doesn't speculate on however is the possiblity that gas prices will not hold to a stable rate of inflation as they have when averaged out over the years. That $7800 figure assumes a starting price per gallon of $2.50. We were paying $2.95/gal here when we purchased ours. Of course prices have dropped slightly into 2.80s, but that skews the savings higher nonetheless.
Tom has hit on an important point however about the average new car buyer not holding a car so long, however I'm inclined to believe that many of the early adopters of hybrids are not the average car buyer and are able to see the advantage of investing long in these things. Regardless, you still can't argue that somebody pickup up a 2-3 year castoff hybrid could save significantly more - if hybrid prices were actually dropping. Around here however, I have not seen resale prices dropping much save for the occassional higher mileage exception.
The bottom line on this issue however doesn't really seem to be how long people keep the cars, but rather what the tax incentives are, and how many miles they drive them. The payoff just continues to accumulate with hybrids as the miles stack up.
What the author of the article doesn't speculate on however is the possiblity that gas prices will not hold to a stable rate of inflation as they have when averaged out over the years. That $7800 figure assumes a starting price per gallon of $2.50. We were paying $2.95/gal here when we purchased ours. Of course prices have dropped slightly into 2.80s, but that skews the savings higher nonetheless.
Tom has hit on an important point however about the average new car buyer not holding a car so long, however I'm inclined to believe that many of the early adopters of hybrids are not the average car buyer and are able to see the advantage of investing long in these things. Regardless, you still can't argue that somebody pickup up a 2-3 year castoff hybrid could save significantly more - if hybrid prices were actually dropping. Around here however, I have not seen resale prices dropping much save for the occassional higher mileage exception.
The bottom line on this issue however doesn't really seem to be how long people keep the cars, but rather what the tax incentives are, and how many miles they drive them. The payoff just continues to accumulate with hybrids as the miles stack up.
no more oil
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
From: Palm Bay Florida
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
geek gal
I see that you reply to my posts often.
However, your opinion is irrelivant to me. There are some whom make valid points, but you dont ever seem to . Sorry. If you end up being one of the 5% of us who still have our current model in 10 years -great. Dont be surprised if people dont believe you just because 'you say so' to fit an argument . Ten years is a long time. Things change.
Anyways.........
purchasing a new car is a dead loss of money in depreciation for everyone who buys. We all know this. Trying to justify it against the same gas model (some whose model also comes in gas only) has not worked for every major investigation out there. The inflated price for the technology sapped out any potential savings for many years. The tax credit made it easier to swallow,
but every expert agrees even at EPA it takes the good ol 5 to 8 years (about 100k ) to break even and actually save money. This is vs buying a new gas car. Not any other alternative. Every other alternative vs buying a hybrid makes the hybrid a hands down loser financially.
With that being said, why on gods green earth would anyone try to buy a hybrid vehicle in this early stage to SAVE MONEY????? Not all that swift .
I respect our fellow members rights to have their opinion, and this is a great post. I think we should all be happy about the emissions and the direction that the hybrid is going.
Apparently toyo has sold over 500k hybrids now!!!!
However, fuel 'economy' -as in economic difference - is the rave of many long time posters and i cannot see why. We aint saving any money now are we?
If you think so , then again go back to my original post comparing a TRUE steal of a deal my escort was and is vs buying any hybrid. Wanna save money and get great mileage? Buy a used small car.
Like all the experts have been saying all along, the fuel savings with these batteries are not the real deal. However, my guess is within 3 years the real deal will be avail and i want to trade this hybrid in at max value.
As for me keeping the mileage down? I just drive city , thus driving it quite a bit, but 1000 hrs of short city trips certainly aint going to hurt the odometer like 1000hrs highway driving. I do plan to trade this hybrid in, but only when the plug in or much improved hybrid diesel appears on the scene.
cheers
I see that you reply to my posts often.
However, your opinion is irrelivant to me. There are some whom make valid points, but you dont ever seem to . Sorry. If you end up being one of the 5% of us who still have our current model in 10 years -great. Dont be surprised if people dont believe you just because 'you say so' to fit an argument . Ten years is a long time. Things change.
Anyways.........
purchasing a new car is a dead loss of money in depreciation for everyone who buys. We all know this. Trying to justify it against the same gas model (some whose model also comes in gas only) has not worked for every major investigation out there. The inflated price for the technology sapped out any potential savings for many years. The tax credit made it easier to swallow,
but every expert agrees even at EPA it takes the good ol 5 to 8 years (about 100k ) to break even and actually save money. This is vs buying a new gas car. Not any other alternative. Every other alternative vs buying a hybrid makes the hybrid a hands down loser financially.
With that being said, why on gods green earth would anyone try to buy a hybrid vehicle in this early stage to SAVE MONEY????? Not all that swift .
I respect our fellow members rights to have their opinion, and this is a great post. I think we should all be happy about the emissions and the direction that the hybrid is going.
Apparently toyo has sold over 500k hybrids now!!!!
However, fuel 'economy' -as in economic difference - is the rave of many long time posters and i cannot see why. We aint saving any money now are we?
If you think so , then again go back to my original post comparing a TRUE steal of a deal my escort was and is vs buying any hybrid. Wanna save money and get great mileage? Buy a used small car.
Like all the experts have been saying all along, the fuel savings with these batteries are not the real deal. However, my guess is within 3 years the real deal will be avail and i want to trade this hybrid in at max value.
As for me keeping the mileage down? I just drive city , thus driving it quite a bit, but 1000 hrs of short city trips certainly aint going to hurt the odometer like 1000hrs highway driving. I do plan to trade this hybrid in, but only when the plug in or much improved hybrid diesel appears on the scene.
cheers
no more oil
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
From: Palm Bay Florida
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
snax
like your point about the resale value holding
but go check out ebay , and older ones are droppin, this is why i need the low miles when i put er up for sale.
cheers
like your point about the resale value holding
but go check out ebay , and older ones are droppin, this is why i need the low miles when i put er up for sale.
cheers
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,616
From: All over the Central U.S.
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
Originally Posted by tomdavie
The thrill of buying new is of course what its all about. But if you wanna get into that discussion, it would completely defeat the whole 'hypermiling' gas saving topic which of course makes up 99.999999999999% of this blog for some reason.
In the end, anyone who buys a new car had BETTER be buying it for the fun of it - because they are gunna lose tens of thousands of dollars no matter what they do. Its the basic , funamental way the auto industry works.
So buying a hybrid was to help the enviroment, not do some fancy tap dancing to justify how it 'will pay for itself' .
The moment you left the lot you got ripped off.
I have a car very similar in size, shape, and features as yours, and I paid $15,000 less for mine.
My car probably weighs about the same as yours ( Mine is 3880 lbs. ) but I get 54 MPG around the city, and about 42 MPG over the highway.
I'd say I'm the one helping the environment.
I'd say I'm having 99.999999999999 times more fun than you, and saving money to boot! I've more than cut my gasoline bill in half, and with tax rebates, I paid the same price as a traditional Escape!
Tom.... it really sounds like you don't belong behind the wheel of a hybrid, and it sounds like you don't belong in this group. Just MHO of course.
As your pitiful gas mileage shows,... your results may varry.
-J
no more oil
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
From: Palm Bay Florida
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
gps man
Your car has nowhere near the features ours does. Only 155k horsepower vs 268, and no towing capacity, and many other features. That is why its 15k less. Ford also has a dubious record of resale value. Toyota is traditionally very good.
Your overinflated -like 175% over EPA mileage claim s dubious and few believe that. In fact , i highly doubt you can get anyone to believe you are getting 50mpg in a FEH . If you REALLY DO , then again, call Ford and re educate the engineers who built the thing who say its designed to get in the low 30s EPA.
You tell em bud..........You are either :
1) a lot smarter than they are
2) lying like an immature child about your REAL mileage to fit in with your cronies on an internet site.
Furthermore:
The average real world mileage for the Highlander 4x4 is 25 on this site. My mileage isnt the best obviously because i drive 2 or 3 miles round trip. But its still 24.7 to 25 mpg which is dead on average.
So how do you justify the 'pitiful mileage' slander here? You are calling all Highlander drivers 'pitifull' are you?
Finally. This is a blog. I THOUGHT it was a blog about hybrids and 'green' cars.
I FOUND OUT the 'green' meant dollars 'saved' apparently. Also, boasting mileage was about showcasing egos -not about anything else.
I keep harping on the same point. Many understand it. You and your cronies dont, do you?
Every expert agrees that buying the hybrid was NOT SAVING YOU A NICKEL for many years.
I know , i know, you can simply LIE AND SAY IT IS. We get it already.......
The same experts feel that the 'value' is helping the enviroment slightly , and for me its also SPREADING THE WORD by example to buy hybrid.
Instead, you guys wanna make it about who can inflate their tires enough with nitrogen or use wet towels and ice instead of AC and 'push ' their car instead of drive the **** thing. All for what? to milk a little more MPG on a car that you are taking thousands of dollars of a loss on once you drive off the lot?????
Now THAT is FUNNY, so im having a lot more fun than you think.
Your car has nowhere near the features ours does. Only 155k horsepower vs 268, and no towing capacity, and many other features. That is why its 15k less. Ford also has a dubious record of resale value. Toyota is traditionally very good.
Your overinflated -like 175% over EPA mileage claim s dubious and few believe that. In fact , i highly doubt you can get anyone to believe you are getting 50mpg in a FEH . If you REALLY DO , then again, call Ford and re educate the engineers who built the thing who say its designed to get in the low 30s EPA.
You tell em bud..........You are either :
1) a lot smarter than they are
2) lying like an immature child about your REAL mileage to fit in with your cronies on an internet site.
Furthermore:
The average real world mileage for the Highlander 4x4 is 25 on this site. My mileage isnt the best obviously because i drive 2 or 3 miles round trip. But its still 24.7 to 25 mpg which is dead on average.
So how do you justify the 'pitiful mileage' slander here? You are calling all Highlander drivers 'pitifull' are you?
Finally. This is a blog. I THOUGHT it was a blog about hybrids and 'green' cars.
I FOUND OUT the 'green' meant dollars 'saved' apparently. Also, boasting mileage was about showcasing egos -not about anything else.
I keep harping on the same point. Many understand it. You and your cronies dont, do you?
Every expert agrees that buying the hybrid was NOT SAVING YOU A NICKEL for many years.
I know , i know, you can simply LIE AND SAY IT IS. We get it already.......
The same experts feel that the 'value' is helping the enviroment slightly , and for me its also SPREADING THE WORD by example to buy hybrid.
Instead, you guys wanna make it about who can inflate their tires enough with nitrogen or use wet towels and ice instead of AC and 'push ' their car instead of drive the **** thing. All for what? to milk a little more MPG on a car that you are taking thousands of dollars of a loss on once you drive off the lot?????
Now THAT is FUNNY, so im having a lot more fun than you think.
no more oil
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
From: Palm Bay Florida
Re: Time to recoup price difference of FEH and FE
snax
childish snides by a couple of members to cut my views down aside....
some who have posted have valid points, and i appreciate you citing mine. I have no problem at all with people who have some maturity and confidence. They will give credit where it is due, and state CONSTRUCTIVE points of their own.
The resale value i am seeing on ebay at the moment is better than what i visioned, but still in line with depreciation unfortunately.
here are some samples, and again this is just one source. I am sure there are others.
06 toyota 4x4 fully loaded highlander hybrid :
7k miles , buy it now price -35k . (4k less than i paid)
05 Ford Escape Hybrid dealer demo :
1500 miles (sold as semi new with no owner) buy it now price 24k
this looks promising
but of course it is not actually the selling price -yet.
ones close to sale read as follows:
2005 honda accord hybrid w/leather:
23k miles - bid at 19,250 with 6 hrs left. asking price was unsaid.
2005 honda civic hybrid:
15k miles, current bid $9,100 but still over a day to go. Asking price is 24k.
So who knows? I dont even know the prices of these cars myself. But from what i saw of the highlander, even with 7k miles on it already its only lost 4k. Ive seen worse!!!!
cheers
childish snides by a couple of members to cut my views down aside....
some who have posted have valid points, and i appreciate you citing mine. I have no problem at all with people who have some maturity and confidence. They will give credit where it is due, and state CONSTRUCTIVE points of their own.
The resale value i am seeing on ebay at the moment is better than what i visioned, but still in line with depreciation unfortunately.
here are some samples, and again this is just one source. I am sure there are others.
06 toyota 4x4 fully loaded highlander hybrid :
7k miles , buy it now price -35k . (4k less than i paid)
05 Ford Escape Hybrid dealer demo :
1500 miles (sold as semi new with no owner) buy it now price 24k
this looks promising
but of course it is not actually the selling price -yet.
ones close to sale read as follows:
2005 honda accord hybrid w/leather:
23k miles - bid at 19,250 with 6 hrs left. asking price was unsaid.
2005 honda civic hybrid:
15k miles, current bid $9,100 but still over a day to go. Asking price is 24k.
So who knows? I dont even know the prices of these cars myself. But from what i saw of the highlander, even with 7k miles on it already its only lost 4k. Ive seen worse!!!!
cheers
