With many Federal candidates promising endless benefits, funding has to come from somewhere. A Federal gas tax that hasn't been raised in 25 years is low hanging fruit for such elected officials who will say anything to justify such action and to use for more than just transportation needs. Maintenance event(s) occur on all vehicles. Wear and tear to suspension, brakes, tires is common for all vehicles including electric ones at all ages. A 10 year gas Toyota and Honda is likely to experience a large maintenance repair bill as is a 10 year old hybrid vehicle and only add to the already high resale value that one had to pay. This is not irrational conclusion. The eCVT in the Ford and Toyota hybrids are much more reliable than the non-hybrid transmissions. If I remember correctly, Honda hybrid owners from the 2000 era burned out their HVB due to the faulty design of the system which was not the same as the Toyota/Ford based ones.

 

I love the feedback but now I’m even more confused!

 

You missed the glory days of this site during 2006-2011 when many high tech and knowledgeable owners put in their 2 cents on multiple threads. An example of such would be to ask why someone burned out their Civic Hybird HVB?

 

You probably didn't read my prior post where I indicated that I'm speaking from experience, NOT speculation. I've been personally involved in over 300 large maintenance events almost exclusively on said reliable Toyota platforms. I also personally own 7 hybrids from Ford, Honda and Toyota.

Hybrids have two propulsion systems and more failure points, and the hybrid components are expensive with fewer aftermarket options if any. While the reliability is high, the risk is also highER for high mileage hybrids. Battery replacement in the short term is almost a certainty, and every single Generation 2 Prius ABS actuator WILL fail. I've driven hundreds of them, and almost every single one of them shows the initial signs of failure. Seen plenty of Prius transaxle failures and have personally enjoyed an MG2 failure in my Gen1 Prius.

If you want low maintenance risk, high reliability and fuel economy from a high mileage used car (>100K miles), a hybrid is rarely the best choice. Period. The maintenance risk is too high. I've personally met about 150 people who learned that the hard way, and I've seen a brand NEW Prius battery fail after only 30K miles.

And you provided nothing relevant to support your flawed logic. In fact, pointing out that it hasn't changed in 25 years indicates how resistant it is to change at the federal level.

 

I understand and respect your opinion but I would like to ask this (genuinely not facetiously): if the risk factors are so high compared to a gas engine model, how does the New York City and San Francisco justify using them for their fleets of FEH and Prius taxis? If I’m understanding you correctly, the hybrids run a higher risk of failure requiring expensive repairs so I don’t understand why they would be used in fleets. I also have been pouring through FEH owner posts (taxis included) about their experiences and it doesn’t appear that the majority are experiencing the failures and high cost repairs you suggest would be more probable with the hybrid.

I watched a video just yesterday where a hybrid tech experts from Ford tore down a NYC taxi with over 200,000. The battery was practically in the same condition it left the factory and still has 85% “battery life” left. The rest was normal wear and tear that any car with that mileage would have. It’s also no surprise that 200k is not even close to what they are normally getting for mileage. I believe the average is around 350-400k miles with some owners getting as much as 500-600k with the same drivetrain. I know that’s not a scientific way to measure things but sometimes the real world results speak for themselves.

I would also question that if the hybrids are in fact more prone to high cost repairs versus their ICE-only counterparts, why are models like the FEH and Prius getting repeat customers and continuing to thrive? I would think that these hybrid owners would jump ship if there were so many expensive failures in these cars.

With every technological advancement, whether it’s in a car or on a cell phone, there will be more failure points. Should I avoid the hybrids altogether for that reason?

(Again, genuine observations and questions here.)

 

Because they're taxis. They rack up ungodly miles relative to the 14.5K miles of the average american driver. Even at your above average utilization of 26,000 miles per year maximum (presumably less since 500/week doesn't sound like an always thing), It would take you 10 years to get to 260k miles. Taxis will do this in 3 years. I've personally replaced a battery in a 2015 Prius used as a privately owned Discount Taxi. It had 272K miles on it in 3 years. He paid for that brand new battery with gas savings at about the 75K mile mark. Even when his head gasket blows, which is an issue with the Gen3, he's already more than paid for the $2400 replacement cost.

Here's an example for you: Guy buys a used 2010 Prius with 187K miles on it because he's delivering Amazon packages, and he wants to save money. Within the first 6 months, his hybrid battery fails and his head gasket blows. That's about $6K in repairs at a dealership. $4.5K in quality aftermarket. He also had the advanced signs of an ABS actuator failure. How much do you think he saved? Nothing. His name is Jason. Really nice guy.

Hybrid savings are in $ per mile. When you're hammering miles on them in short order, your benefit potential increases dramatically. For a consumer to offset a major repair with gas savings, it may take 5 years. For a taxi operator to offset a major repair, which they may already be setup to deal with internally, meaning it will cost them notably less than a consumer, it may take only a year.

Taxi performance is a HORRIBLE gauge of overall reliability for consumers. They are driven nearly constantly with fewer power and thermal cycles per mile. No consumer operates their car like a taxi.

I personally own a 2008 Prius that experienced a hybrid battery failure at 55K miles. All seven of my current hybrids have had battery failures. The two hybrids I previously owned had battery failures (that means NINE total HV battery failures). I've seen failed transaxles at 130K miles. I've seen hundreds of hybrid battery failures at an average of 160K miles. This is in ONE geographic region. If you're going to cite "real world" results, you have to look at the whole spectrum of "real world". For every story of a 500K+ mile car, you have many dozens who have experienced major maintenance events at dramatically lower mileage. I literally have 100s of those stories.

Let me assure you. Original owners get really p1ssed when their hybrid batteries go out at 106K, 110K, 130K, 144K miles, and the dealer tells them it's between $3000 and 5000 to replace. Not a single one of them saw the economics of the situation that they had already paid for the replacement battery with fuel savings years ago. They're angry, and even when I can provide them with a much more cost effective solution, most drive away saying this is the last hybrid they'll ever own.

If you are unable to stomach a $2-3K repair bill within the first 30 days of ownership, you should avoid hybrids. If you are purchasing a lower mileage (~60K) hybrid, that still has at least a substantial portion of the battery warranty remaining, IMHO, that offsets it, and they can be considered. Additionally, a used hybrid that has DOCUMENTED repairs common to that model can be considered. Regardless, only one-owner, garage kept, well-maintained, etc., can be considered.

If you intend to operate a vehicle as a taxi, you should expect taxi results. If you are not, you should not expect taxi results.

 

What you have failed to mention is the history of the vehicle(s). You purchased all these vehicles used didn't you?

 

Your message keeps going back to the hybrid battery. The health of a hybrid battery can be checked out.

 

Of course. My only new car purchase was in 2001, and I still have buyer's remorse for the depreciation I paid. I'll never own another new vehicle unless I can pay cash for it... even then. Still probably never.

My situation is different. I have the means of repairing them cheaply and effectively in most cases, or they are a test bed of one type or another. I have invested more in tools and equipment than the total sum of all 7 hybrids I currently own.

My first was an '06 HCH. At 65K miles, it still had some battery warranty left, and my wife loved it. It had already had its hybrid battery replaced once by a Honda dealership. Almost immediately after the warranty expired, the battery failed again.

For every few calls I receive about a hybrid battery, I get a call about a failed combo meter, failed inverter coolant pump, failed ABS actuator, failed transaxle, blown head gasket, etc.

You're wrong. You can't check the health of a hybrid battery. You can confirm certain things to establish that it's working properly at this exact moment, but it's completely impossible to establish the "health" of a hybrid battery and predict/estimate the time of a hybrid battery failure. All it takes is a single cell to fail. You can only look at 12 cells at a time. Some can limp along for years with a marginal cell. Others go from perfect function to limp mode in a single drive.

I get the impression that you feel the need to defend hybrids. I'm sorry you feel that way. I personally love hybrids. I think they're awesome. I have seven, and I've owned a total of nine (in case you forgot). For original owners and folks who get used ones early on, they can't be beat, but the reality is that people looking for low cost of ownership in a high mileage used vehicle should not consider hybrids due to their higher maintenance risks. Again, I've personally met about 150 of them and spoken to several dozen more. Every single one of them was VERY frustrated. MANY of them were in a desperate situation because they didn't have the funds needed for repairs.

I'm sharing my experience associated with literally hundreds of events where I am a direct participant (I'm not invoking the thousands of events experienced by service providers with whom I have a direct relationship). You're arguing from a position of your personal experience with a handful of cars and what you read online. My motivation is purely to inform potential consumers of substantial risks associated with the decision at hand. What's your motivation for encouraging others to take greater risk?

Also consider that when I take a call from someone seeking advice about purchasing a used hybrid, and I tell them that it's probably not in their best interest, I am literally acting against my own self interest by ensuring I don't create a potential customer.

 

Just took my "used" 2016 RAV4 lame 4wd hybrid to and from Michigan averaging 31.2 mpg in 20 and 30F temperatures. Glad to know that I don't have to deal with the failed transmissions found on many ICE (the non-hybrid Escape has had a history of this) as I had experience prior to obtaining my hybrid vehicles. Can't remember any failed transmission reports from the Ford Escape Hybrid site from the 2006-2015 years. Must be a reason why. Gee, no alternator either to go out as I had also experienced in my previous ICE vehicles. Purchasing a 10 year old plus vehicle hybrid or not and with over 120,000 miles, good luck. Those ICE also break down and my relative left a Honda with high miles on the shoulder due to multiple failures and started walking for help. Gee, the last time I looked, there was multi-year owner reports from various magazines/digital print sites that one can also used to compare experiences to what is found here. Good luck.