Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

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  #11  
Old 05-18-2021, 07:44 AM
Lorne William Hengst's Avatar
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Thankyou for the thorough reply AlexK.

Other pieces of information I hadn't mentioned because I didn't think they were relevant until now:
1. The lug on the negative terminal was SO TIGHT on the old battery that it had deformed the post, the lug was basically embedded into the metal of the post. To get the lug off, I had to remove the bolt on the lug and pry the lug open (wider) enough for the lug to slide up and off of the battery post. Maybe the original owner was having grounding issues and was temporarily fixing it by tightening the lug over and over again?
2. The dealer had cleaned up the engine bay A LOT before selling it. When I removed the old battery, there was lots of sand under the battery. The car used to be a government vehicle on the border in Lerado Texas. It looks like it spend a lot of time on dusty and sandy dirt roads. Maybe I should be concerned about sand that previously snuck into stuff and messed things up?

My plan today:
1. Check the battery terminals/cables/ground points/etc for "hot" temperatures after the car has gone on a trip. Check for corrosion, check for other oddities.
2. Run the pinpoint tests and make sure nothing is wrong there.
3. Disconnect and inspect the pins on the TCM connectors.
4. Play around with my improved OBD scanner.

Questions/Replies:
1. I have been going on the assumption that P0562 is not being cleared. But, I guess it is possible that P0562 IS being cleared and then popping right back up before FORSCan repulls the DTC codes 2 seconds later. I think this is unlikely, what are ya'lls thoughts? NOTE: If the code is actually continually being thrown, that would change how I am thinking about troubleshooting, that would mean a problem exists that I can find with my voltmeter.
2. AlexK, you wrote "The HV Battery will turn on the Air Conditioner if the battery box is warmer than 85'F, but will still allow EV." I was driving around yesterday while watching the "Efficiency" screen of the Nav system, which clearly shows when the vehicle is in EV mode. The car easily goes into EV mode at low speeds, but I could not get the car to go into EV mode if the AC was turned on. It was 78 degrees outside yesterday, I was not using MAX AC or RECIRC, but Auto mode may have been off (I think I might have set the blower motor to a specific speed). Also, with the AC on, my fuel economy dropped 4 mpg to 29, with the AC off, I was able to get 33 mpg. Question: Should I be concerned that EV mode wouldn't come on when the AC was on?
3. Thanks for the links to the 2011 service manual. It did a good job of explaining how the DC/DC converter operates, but I didn't see anything that might help me get the P0562 code cleared. Did I miss something?
4. "What is a "lame kill cycle?" I think ford390gashog may have been referring to a "limp mode", which my understanding is slang for anytime a vehicle purposefully underperforms in an attempt to safely deal with problems sensors on the car are detecting/detected. I think it would be OK to refer to the "expired battery" bug that happens on some hybrids as a "Limp Mode" since the hybrid stops leveraging the 300V battery as much as it should.

 
  #12  
Old 05-18-2021, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

1) clear + return is the likely scenario. Conduct the diagnostics from the pages AlexK linked.
2) A/C is electric, but it places a significant load on the HV system. That load may prevent prolific EV mode. The engine should still turn off when you come to a stop. Auto mode is best as it generally results in the most efficient operation.
 
  #13  
Old 05-18-2021, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Originally Posted by S Keith
1) clear + return is the likely scenario. Conduct the diagnostics from the pages AlexK linked.
I have read through the links AlexK provided and for the life of me, I am unable to determine what you meant by "clear + return is the likely scenario". Can you clarify?
 
  #14  
Old 05-18-2021, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

It is clearing but returning upon re-check as you describe.
 
  #15  
Old 05-18-2021, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Originally Posted by S Keith
It is clearing but returning upon re-check as you describe.
Ahhh... not sure why I couldn't figure that out myself. Thanks for clarifying.

FYI: I compared the AlexK's links to the 2011 Escape pinpoint tests for P0562 to the pinpoint tests in my 2010 escape service manual from Alldatadiy, and the 2010 pinpoint tests are quite a bit different than the 2011 pinpoint tests. I guess I'll start with the 2010 tests. Having a background in electronics, my intuition tells me the 2011 tests have some value even though they are for a different year, so I might execute them if the 2010 tests don't produce the desired results.
 
  #16  
Old 05-18-2021, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

It's hard for me to say about how and why the P0562 is being thrown and cleared. It signals a low voltage condition that lasts long enough for the computer to take notice and throw the code, but I don't know how quickly (or if) it clears the code automatically when the condition clears itself, or if it needs to be manually reset each time it appears.

A couple of days ago in a different thread I talked about my mid-distance trip and my car was definitely going into EV mode with the A/C on, not in recirc. Then it would spin up the ICE every few minutes I presume to run the A/C compressor and top off the HV battery and then drop back into EV mode.

I decided to go outside right now and try it. Conditions: Car in PARK, outside temperature 70 degrees. Inside the cabin the car has been sitting in the sun so it was quite toasty but not unpleasant - about 80-85 degrees I would say. 2010 FEH Limited 2WD, ~62,500 miles.

1) Turn key, start car, sit in PARK. "Ready to Drive." Seatbelt on. Passenger side airbag indicating OFF. All dash lights flash and go out as usual.
2) Set driver's side temperature **** to 72 degrees, not in AUTO.
3) Hit A/C button, light illuminates. Hit RECIRC button, light illuminates.
4) Adjust fan speed to 4 and set it to come out of dash vents, light illuminates. Flap moves. All air is coming from dash vents at indicated fan speed 4.
5) Radio on and tuned to National Public Radio for my daily dose of whatever it is they are yapping about. Radio graphic equalizer dancing on the SYNC/NAV display.
6) Headlight/parking/foglight switch to OFF, not AUTO. No other whimwhams or doodads drawing power.

Very cold air started coming out of the vents immediately and stayed very cold.

ICE engine was OFF. It worked that way for ~6 full minutes and then the ICE spun up. The A/C temperature was very chill the entire time.

So I would say that YES, when everything is correct on the car (or however close mine is), the A/C should definitely work in pure EV mode without the engine coming on, at least for a while, until the computer decides to spin it up. All of these cars are a little bit different, obviously. This was sitting in my driveway, not moving.

It's not really surprising that the A/C causes the overall mileage to drop slightly. It takes several horsepower (1 hp ~= 746 watts) to run the A/C compressor from what I recall and then the blower motor at speed 4 is probably at least another 500 watts. But at least on my car it will be "Ready to Drive" in EV mode WITH the A/C on, just turning the key, for at least 6 minutes before the ICE starts running. Hope this helps. For what it's worth, my unscientific observations on the trip the other day suggested to me that the hybrid system operates with slightly different control parameters when the A/C is on. I didn't test to see whether that made a +/- difference in reported MPG.
 

Last edited by AlexK; 05-18-2021 at 11:19 AM.
  #17  
Old 05-18-2021, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Originally Posted by Lorne William Hengst
1. The lug on the negative terminal was SO TIGHT on the old battery that it had deformed the post, the lug was basically embedded into the metal of the post. To get the lug off, I had to remove the bolt on the lug and pry the lug open (wider) enough for the lug to slide up and off of the battery post. Maybe the original owner was having grounding issues and was temporarily fixing it by tightening the lug over and over again?
2. The dealer had cleaned up the engine bay A LOT before selling it. When I removed the old battery, there was lots of sand under the battery. The car used to be a government vehicle on the border in Lerado Texas. It looks like it spend a lot of time on dusty and sandy dirt roads. Maybe I should be concerned about sand that previously snuck into stuff and messed things up?
What would concern me with the dealer cleaning the engine bay is that possibly some water or cleaner has made its way into a connector somewhere and is causing a short circuit or a leakage current. Usually that would cause an obvious malfunction or a blown fuse, but maybe not. I really don't like the idea of washing engine compartments - particularly with pressure! - unless it is absolutely necessary. I have actually walked away from used cars that looked like their owners tried to clean up the engine compartments too much, not just for cosmetic reasons, but to camouflage leaks and so forth. Old hoses that are ready to blow out are still old hoses ready to blow out when they are shiny, etc. I just do a little vacuuming and cleaning of exterior engine compartment surfaces with a damp towel and some glass cleaner maybe, wipe off the dust and gunk so I can see the markings on reservoirs clearly, etc., make the "Hybrid" box look nice, etc. I got schooled on this with older Audi vehicles about the dangers of getting lots of underhood connectors and other parts wet. Those cars were absolute ground fault nightmares sometimes. At the link to the manual pages, you'll see that it recommends inspecting the battery cable ends - not just at the battery but also the orange cable ends where they attach to the DC/DC converter. And if he was torquing down that 12V negative terminal with such force, maybe you should track it back and see if you can locate the main chassis ground, inspect, clean and retighten it. There are tests you can do to with the cables to determine if their continuity is good, but maybe you've got some loose or fractured connector near the DC/DC converter and/or a bad ground on the *other* end? This is just off the top of my head.

Also, if it was a "desert" car, I would definitely make sure to change that air filter. The car should use a Motorcraft FA-1772 and I bought the FRAM equivalent, a CA-10170. It is not a difficult job, just be gentle and don't force anything. You might be getting in there to clean the throttle body anyway at some point. And while you have the filter out, check out the bottom/inside of the housing. Critters like to try to crawl in and nest in there, and at night in the desert, critters get cold. When I took mine out, there were about a half dozen chestnut shells rattling around in the bottom, obviously smuggled inside by something small and furry. I vacuumed it out and that was that. In any case, if it spent a lot of time in a dusty environment and you don't know when the air filter was last changed, just do it. There is almost nothing more effective than sand and fine dust to ruin an engine except possibly explosives.

Amazon Amazon
 

Last edited by AlexK; 05-18-2021 at 12:55 PM.
  #18  
Old 05-18-2021, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

"What would concern me with the dealer cleaning the engine bay is that possibly some water or cleaner has made its way into a connector somewhere and is causing a short circuit or a leakage current."
It looks like a gentle wipe down only from the top with a wet rag, it was too dirty in the inaccessible to your hand places, thus I am fairly confident they didn't use a pressure washer.

"Also, if it was a "desert" car, I would definitely make sure to change that air filter."

The P0562 pin test was mainly testing one of the two connectors on the back side of the transaxle box. It was much easier to access the pins by removing the airfilter housing. You are right, the filter was a bit dirty AND the bottom of the air filter housing was full of bugs and sand. I was able to dump all of that out. I will be ordering a new filter tonight.

Frustrating Troubleshooting Day Today
1. I received my new and improved scan tool. And sure enough, the newer tool unlocked a lot more functionality in FORScan, including a bunch more DTC codes that I was previously unable to clear.
2. I ran the battery rebalancing service routine today since I had everything out and I had the time to do it. It only took 18 minutes to run, lucky me.
3. I ran the the 2010 pin test procedure outlined in alldatadiy's copy of the service manual. Unfortunately, everything checked out and the P0562 code remains.

So... no luck today. It seems pretty obvious to me from the pin test procedure that the TCM is looking for less than 10V on VPWR or Battery+, my voltmeter showed 12+ volts on all combinations of pins and grounds with the key ON but the engine OFF. I used the FORSCan oscilloscope function to monitor the TCM VPWER voltage and the PCM Battery+ voltage for a while and they both remained steady and samples were flying in at at least 5 samples/second (probably much faster).

I am starting to suspect that the wiring inside of the transaxle housing has some sort of issue, or at least the connections to the external connector have an issue. I also think that this TCM code has been around for a while and the scan tool used by the inspection company I paid for failed to pull the TCM code.
 
  #19  
Old 05-19-2021, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Did you clean all the body grounds already? I will probably have my leakage P code forever too. At least it only turns on the wrench.
 
  #20  
Old 05-19-2021, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Just bought 2010 Escape Hybrid with Battery Issues

Originally Posted by ShadyEscape
Did you clean all the body grounds already? I will probably have my leakage P code forever too. At least it only turns on the wrench.
Not yet. I was getting frustrated yesterday and decided a good nights rest and some rethinking and planning would be a better use of my time.

Plan For Next Work Day (Wife has vehicle at work for a few days):
1. Check all nearby ground points (I think there are 3). Unscrew them, look for issues, clean if necessary, reattach.
2. The pinpoint test has you test the cable pins with the cable disconnected, this might mask mask a short or something inside the inverter converter pulling the voltage down when the connector is connected, the wiring diagram shows there are some easy places to test the same connections from within the underhood fuse box, I will do the same tests from there and see if I notice a difference.
3. I am seriously considering opening up the inverter converter, but I cannot find a video or article of anyone doing it. (More discussion about this below).

What I Learned about the DCDC converter and the Inverter:
Originally, I thought that the transaxle assembly was all one unit, mainly because of this photo:

The rectangular box on the top right of the photo is where the connectors plug into that the pinpoint test requested I test. I assumed that because this was all one big part number that the box the wires went into were the same hunk of metal that enclosed the two electric motors. But, then I ran across this video from WeberAuto and Dr. John D. Kelly (most of the video talks about the eCVT/transaxle parts, but the link below jumps you right into the 3 or so minutes Dr. Kelly spent talking about the inverter converter at the 24:04 mark):


It turns out the inverter converter (i.e. the electronics that convert from 300VDC to 3 phase AC needed to drive/generate the electric motors and the electronics needed to convert from 300VDC to 12VDC) is a completely separate hunk of metal and housing from the eCVT/transaxle housing. They just happened to be bolted together and only sold as one assembly. I keep thinking to myself that it would be really nice to pull off the cover to the inverter converter and probe the system and check for issues.

BUT! I am scared. I would prefer first watching a video of someone doing this themselves, especially since it sounds like the inverter converter is somehow cooled, has 300V wires running around inside, and the cover looks like it has some sort of sealant on it. Alas, I cannot find a video or even a post/website anywhere describing this process. Even more frustrating, in the video I posted above, Dr. Kelly twirls the inverter converter around, talks about it for 10 minutes, the bolts on the cover are already removed, yet he NEVER LIFTS THE COVER OFF AND TALKS ABOUT IT!!!!

ALSO, it looks like there might be enough space inside the engine compartment to remove the converter inverter cover in situ. Which would mean I could poke around inside the inverter converter without putting in too much effort.

Does anyone have any advice to provide, links, experience with this, thoughts?

I am having to weigh all of these thoughts with the fact that the car seems to be driving great (I was able to do a 35 mile round trip into town last night and has an average fuel consumption of 41.5mpg). But, I am going to kick myself if I am ignoring what is in reality a big issue that will cause premature failures down the road. Would I be taking too much of a risk of screwing something up in an effort to fix an issue that may not be worth fixing?
 

Last edited by Lorne William Hengst; 05-19-2021 at 01:17 PM.


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