John, thank you for checking my test results. Some things in the manual are repeated for the FEH that don't apply. The FEH does not have a torque converter like the automatic in the standard 2WD or AWD Escape. All of my coasting is with the key on since the test. Everything seems fine and my FE is great. The weather did get down in the 60's last night, but all else is ok during the day.

PS, I'm not the one or many sending you hate email or whatever.

GaryG

 

It was just brought up on the Yahoo site the manual states towing the FEH behind a Recreational Vehicle at a max. of 75mph in neutral with all 4 wheels on the road is permitted. You can take this information that the key position is not a problem either. This is good news for RV owners out there.

GaryG

 

I'm contacting Ford directy about the towing issues.

I'm sure they cut and paste pages in the manual from other vehicles.
But which is correct?

The towing issue will clear up a lot.

Let's wait to hear from Ford Engineering Department.
I'm trying to bypass the std. "Customer Service" and get word from inside the Hybrid development team.

I'll cut and paste into here when I get offical word.

-John

 

John, while your talking to the Hybrid team, could you bring up an issue for me. When coasting or towing in "N", engine on or off, EV or FAS, is there information lost to the Nav or scangauge that would make it read lower mpg averages readings. As I posted, at fill up, I'm getting better FE than the gauges are coming up with. In other words, is data lost while coasting or towing in "N".

In regards to the RV towing, I think Ford is trying to attract RV owners by saying you can use your diesel pushers to pull around a Hybrid Escape, unlike the standard Escape like before with an automatic. Why else would they use speed limits at up to 75mph and add a disclaimer.

Ever look at that picture of my gauges down below? Notice the MTE and then look at where the shifter position is. To funny

Thanks

GaryG

 

First, if you are towing, you are going to have the system off, just the key in, to unlock the gear select... otherwise, you arrive with both a dead 12v and 330v battery.

Second, if the key is set to position 1... "Acc" ( which is what I think you mean by key off ) then the computer is not calculating FE data.

Third... I'm not tying to prove or disprove anything, but I would like you to have gone through several complete tanks ( 450-500 miles range ) and average them out before making any conclusions. Too many variables going on right now, and too small of a sample size to make statistically valid assumptions. Your numbers may be different for a reason we have not thought of yet.

Fourth... we're pretty sure the ScanGauge treats EV driving as 9999 MPG. As close to infinate as it can get. Close, but not actually what's going on. Does anyone know what the stock system uses for EV? It may be 60 MPG... but probably more...
It may be 99 MPG.... If binary, could be 255 MPG for "Max".... Could be 999, could be 999,999 for all I know. Most likely, it's differrent than the ScanGauge.

Another difference... when you ramp-up the RPM coasting in "Low"... the Ford's FE rate goes up ( to "Max" ) usually.... the ScanGauge, goes down ( to something low like 20 MPG ). The Ford may be smart enough to know that fuel is cut off during this process, while the ScanGauge thinks you are using the quantity of fuel normally used at 4,000 RPM.

This may account for your SG reading low.
I'm still on my first tank since getting the SG... but my gut feeling is, mine is reading low also.

I asked an engineer at Ford for what's the real story with towing.
I also asked if there was a difference in drag between neutral with system "on" and neutral with system off, like in towing.

I let you know more when I know more...
-John

 

I posted this on Yahoo to an answer to a question ask there regarding towing and the 40mph limits of EV. Here is a copy for GH for comments:

The traction motor/generator is where you get regen braking. A shift to "N" will stop the regen completely using the traction motor.This means in "N", you can hit the brakes and get full braking from the pads and rotors (the brakes) at any speed. I do this when I don't want a restart of the ICE with a full battery. While in EV with the shifter in "N", you will also get a restart at 40mph on a down hill run. I think this is a computer command myself.

If you shift to "N" under 6mph, you are in a "Passive State" that will not let the ICE restart or die (keep its present state). Over 6mph ashift to "N" will put you in an "Active State" where the ICE and EV mode can change.

Not sure (testing required in this area), if the Key is turned off
under 6mph or at any speed, you go into the passive "N" and the 40mph would not be a limit factor for towing or coasting above 40mph with the electric motor/generator. A "Passive state" in "N" seems to play a part in why you can tow above 40mph and not have a problem. IMHO

GaryG

 

This is starting to turn into a debate similar to Roswell.

I guess it is about who / what do you believe?

Do you believe the gear selector is a software command and other than "Park" nothing mechanical happens in all the other positions?

Do you believe the computer has the final say so, not the driver?

Coasting in N at higher speeds, key on, ICE on, ( like 65-75 MPH going down-grade ) I have many times seen energy arrows flowing around the Nav energy flow screen.

So what's going on then?

The Ford Service Manual ( not the owner's manual ) says the Traction Motor is spinning any time the wheels are spinning.... D, N, or otherwise.

So what's going on when you tow?

I think you are on the right track if you say towing requires the system to be "off" and then I would have to say passive neutral is the only neutral possible.

When I coast downgrade in N at 75 MPH with the system on... this is for sure "Active Neutral". Not only can the system start and stop the ICE at will, it can (apparently) do everything else at will, including regen or not in "Active Neutral".

I will agree, that in active neutral, pressing the brakes does not make regen.
But this is HUMAN input. The computer is choosing to ignore you.
Just like if you floor the pedal in N, the engine does NOT ramp up... like a mechanical linkage would do to a normal car. The computer ignores your request in this case, because it doesn't make any sense from its point of view.
If I can trust the energy flow screen ( not 100% sure I can ) then the system can choose to provide regen, or engine brake, in active neutral, if it determines it is prudent to do so.

Anyone see any LGM lately? *(little green men)

 

Hello Xcel

Found a place 20 miles west of me for good testing today, as well as going back to my other coasting test site to try some different coasting methods. Saw a huge wild hog and about 8-10 piglets along my new marked test site.

First of all, having the SoC at ~50% changed everything. The charge/Assist was in the charge side so the ICE was burning more fuel bringing FE down to your original requested figures. With all my tests, I've been taking white paint and marking the street so I can mark a start and end for the test. This was helpful comparing coasting to my last tests a while ago. Marking the center of the lane with a 3' X 4" starting line and finish is the best way.

Todays acceleration test between 33 to 43mph, "L" at 43mph, back to "D" ICE off at 40, EV coast to 35mph and maintain (37mph caused to many restarts during the test with my foot). Total distance from start to finish was .36 miles.

#1. 10 to 15mpg (3 test ) 57.1, 59.6 and 60 (max) mpg averages.

#2. 15 to 20mpg (3 test) 49.6, 50.3 and 51.2 mpg averages.

#3. 20 to 25mpg (3 test) 31.5, 32 and 39 mpg averages. I had about 40 yards of EV at 35mph before the finish line.

Remember, trying to keep the SoC at ~50% before each test is not easy because of the one small bar we have on the FEH.

In addition, I did coasting test to compare past results. For those interested, here are my results:

Old Test:

Key OFF at 40mph in "N" EV Coast to stop = .68 miles

At 40mph in "D" EV coast to stop = .5 miles (shift to "N" at 10mph for creap mode problem).

This is a 36% increase

Today's test:

At 40mph "N" EV coast to stop = .6 miles (key in run position) A .08 mile decrease than Key Off.

At 40mph ICE On in "D" coast to stop = .6 miles (shift to "N" at 10mph for no creaping). Same distance as EV "N" Key On.

At 40mph ICE On in "N" coast to stop = .82 miles. Increase of .22 miles over ICE On "D" coasting

Clearly, ICE On in "N" has a BIG advantage over "D" for FE while coasting.

Clearly Key Off in "N" has an advantage (.08 miles) over Key ON EV coasting in "N".

What's Next?

GaryG

 

Ford says the manuals are wrong.

It IS safe to tow any FEH with all 4 wheels on the ground at speeds up to 75mph.

Ford says there is no mechanical harm from coasting in Neutral with the car started, and running normally. They agree you will coast a longer distance, but doubt you will get any net gain in MPG.

While coasting in N you are still depleating the HV battery. When you get where you end the coast, your battery will have lower potential. Net gain... zero.

The difference may not be perfectly zero in reality.
The difference "may" be so slight as to not be worth the effort.

Ford says under no circumstances should a person operate the vehicle with the key turned off. They said this is so unsafe, they would not discuss the matter any further.

 

Those are very broad and false statements if coming from a FEH Ford Engineer regarding "N" coasting. As far as draining the battery, Ive drained my battery most likely as much or more than anyone here. There is a post in this thread where I got over 58mpg draining the battery and charging it with the ICE, Fake shift and low gear advantage. This is 22mpg higher than the EPA ratings in city driving. Depleating the battery can give you much, much more than net zero mpg, I've done it for a year now. If anyone from Ford thought draining the battery would give you a zero net gain, why did they put all that weight (battery, elec. motors etc.) in an Escape? Talk about little green men!

After my coasting test again yesterday, I found that just coasting with the ICE running using "N" could save everyone reading this tread alot of gas. This morning, I drove 9.2 miles to have lunch with my wife and got a 42mpg average from a cold start up. My trip average speed from the scangauge was 33mph, top speed was 58mph and the battery stayed near or at the top the whole time. Trip time was .2 hours. These were not my beach roads, these were fast moving heavy traffic roads with speed limits from 35 - 55mph. While not having any regen from the wheels, you do have generator charging from the ICE running and coasting in "N". That's what that green arrow is doing pointing to the battery you asked about. You still have those other tricks to use like "L" for a stop if you need it. Also, I'd tried to stay with a 15 - 23mpg aceleration rate with some assist on the scangauge for the pulse.

As far as EV coasting in "N", I go further on a charge with it than without. Not a big gain over "D" coasting in EV, but still a gain. Pulse and glide is helping thanks to xcel and if he can help on the pulse, we can all have some nice tricks to work on FE.

John, you have been very negative about P&G and it sounds like Ford told you what you wanted to hear with the exception of towing. The Ford people don't know some us use low and the fake shift for charging either. P&G has been proven to increase FE if done properly in Hybrids also. Even when done improperly like I did this morning, it can help.

GaryG