Someone ( Hobbit) suggested that I jack one wheel off the ground, place the car into "Neutral" and see how it "felt" moving it with your hand. Brilliant idea!

Not only could I feel TONS of mechanical resistance in "Neutral" but with the engine off, I could also hear lots of mechanical noise as moving parts were meshing together. Key was on, engine was off.

I found something even MORE interesting!

With one wheel jacked off the ground, and ICE running, in "Neutral" the wheel will spin on its own in the forward direction. Not much, but there is a tiny amount of forward torque on the wheels in Neutral. There was also a ton of resistance to me spinning the wheel backwards in Neutral, when the ICE was running, but could move it forward with one finger. Once I got the tire moving forward, it would continue to move forward on its own. The tires receive a tiny amount of positive torque in "Neutral".

I have video ( .mov ) of the tire spinning forward, on its own, with the car in Neutral. Can I upload a 10MB movie file to this site?

MORE POSITIVE PROOF THERE IS NO MECHANICAL DISCONNECT IN "Neutral".

 

Not questioning your results. But just wondering... whether or not there is a mechanical disconnect.... isn't there still a differential? What happens when you lift one corner of a vehicle with a differential and try to spin that wheel with the other one down? I frankly have no idea the answer to that....

 

Yes... I figure I could/would hear gears moving pre-disconnect if there was one... however, there's no getting around the fact that there was positive torque ( not much, so slight you could stop it with your hand ) that would spin the tire off the ground... in "Neutral" when the ICE was spinning.

With key on, engine off, the wheel would not spin on it's own.

The fact that it moves at all is what is significant. If there was a physical break... a mechanical disconnect... the wheels would not move at all, right?

 

John, look at what you just said and the question you ask. In neutral with the ICE running is called secondary idle according to what I read the manual. This is because the generator brake nor the generator is controlling the idle, and the engine is on its own. If you had no disconnect, the wheels would spin at a given gear driven speed. The ICE is turning at around 1,100 RPM's, but the vehicle is not moving in neutral. If anyone's vehicle here is moving in neutral, that would be significant and cause to figure out why things aren't disconnecting. You can't have something connected to a moving object that turns the wheels fast one minute and not the next without disconnecting it.

GaryG

 

The engine, at idle, IS spinning the generator. ( in Neutral )
But the generator is not making any electricity, because there is no load on it.
The ScanGauge says so.

Most of the engine speed is going to the generator.
A tiny bit, less than 1% is going to the wheels.
Maybe you like coasting in Neutral so much because you are getting a 1% boost!

If you don't trust what the SG is saying then you should throw yours out, or ask for your money back. If it's wrong about RPM, it's probably wrong about your MPG too, and you are really getting ~35 MPG!

This is not hard to understand.
Only you are hard to understand!

 

I thought you posted the RPM of the generator while the ICE was running in neutral with the vehicle stop, but I don't see it now. If the generator is spinning taking over 99% of ICE idle, what is the generator RPM? I thought I read you stated -3120 RPM, is that correct?

The reason I ask is the patent states that inertia could cause damage. If I throw the shifter in drive, what do you think the RPM of the engine and generator would do to the inertia of wheels not moving? If there was a clutch disconnect, a smooth amount of torque could be applied to prevent the shock of inertia.

GaryG

 

The generator IS spinning close to that when the engine is at ~1000 RPM, but moves in the positive direction when wheel speed ( TM Speed ) is zero.
It moves in the negative direction when wheels are moving and engine speed is zero ( EV ).

If you shove it into drive, NOTHING will happen to the traction motor or wheels.
That is the whole point. Everything has always been "connected" from the get go, so there is no clashing of gears.

Remember, this is a 3-way device. As long as 2 members are balanced, the third can stand still and be hard connected... no slippage or clutch required, or desired. Power moves the path of least resistance. To transfer power from the engine to the wheels, you need to add resistance to the generator, or take resistance away from the wheels, so the wheels become the path of least resistance.
If you shoved the ICE into drive and two motors were standing still, it would probably grind the teeth off the gears.
Remember, when you start the car, the ICE and the Generator spin up together in concert, they are in a sense, as good as welded together at this point, since the traction motor is as good as welded in place due to the parking pawl. Remove the parking pawl, and the traction motor can spin up in RPM reducing the RPM of either the ICE, or the Generator, or both.

Neutral only = No load on the generator, so it spins, and the wheels don't, because normally the wheels DO have a load on them, when they are touching the ground. With a wheel off the ground, you now have no load on the generator, and no load on the wheels at the same time, so now power ( torque ) from the engine has 2 possible paths, instead of one. This is why my ICE was spinning the generator (mostly) and my wheels ( slowly ) at the same time in "neutral". And I have a video of this process.

I have to wonder if I let it sit long enough, and wasted more gas, if the wheel speed would gradually increase over time. It might.

I should say that having a wheel up allows the ring gear, or traction motor to spin, but I think everyone assumed that already.

The principle of Ockham's razor comes to mind.

Ockham's razor is a principle attributed to the English logician William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the hypothesis or theory. Do not assume things are there that you cannot observe with your 5 senses. The principle often expressed in Latin is translated to:
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity." This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." ( see Wikipedia )

You have no speed "matching" problems if things always stay connected.
You have no chance of grinding gears if things always stay connected.
You have fewer parts to manufacture if things simply stay connected.
You can start the engine in motion, if things stay connected.
( you cannot start the engine at all if things are disconnected )
You eliminate all noise, vibration, and harshness if things stay connected.
You can make a smaller, lighter, more compact transmission.
You have a more durable and reliable product, the simpler it is.
You have very little mechanical drag when power is removed from the motors if the balance and bearings are good. These seem excellent.
It is simpler to just keep all gears in mesh at all times.
The only downside I see to this is towing. And few people do this. And the ones that do, only do it for... 1% or 2% of the life of the vehicle?
I think perhaps the way it was built, over-speed is not a problem when towing... and it appears, from Gary's driving, not a problem when you FAS over 40 MPH.

Ockham's razor cuts the crap, and leaves the nitty gritty.
Why make the eCVT more complicated than it needs to be?
It really looks like Ford found other more elegant ways to make a simpler vehicle than all the patents suggest. You know technology doubles every 18 months. By the time the patent clerk assigned it a number, that patent was obsolete already.

Everything you posted in the past Gary is possible.
It is just not probable, and its chances get smaller the more we look at the car we have sitting in our driveway. Honestly, wouldn't you rather look at your car than a piece of paper?

All of the benefits in MPG for your N coasting comes from regen being shut off. Both motors are spinning the same. Just neither one is doing any work, thus neither one is slowing the car down. I will be the first to admit that shifting to N is the best way to stop all regen.

On a Prius page it was published that the Prius generator is allowed to spin 10,000 RPM with brief periods allowed to exceed this ( such as WOT acceleration ).

Towing the FEH with wheels down and generator connected would spin the generator 11,700 RPM at 75MPH. If Ford's is beefier and "stronger" *built Ford Tough* compared to Toyota's, it is not unreasonable for the FEH to be able to freewheel the generator with no electrical load for sustained periods.
I don't like the sounds of it, but it seems technically feasible. If Toyota's can do it for brief periods ( exceed 10k ) then why can't ours???

The generator spins ~ -6000 RPM when in EV at 39.9 MPH.
I think it was a false assumption for some of us (myself included) to think there was a 6000 RPM limit for the generator. This is almost certainly NOT the case, as now that I know how to meter it, I have seen my generator spin 8600 RPM with the engine on, during "normal" driving conditions. No warning messages, no flashing lights came on the dash.

I think the REAL reason for the 40 MPH EV limit is, much above this, the generator does not have enough torque to spin up the ICE. Thus it won't hurt the motor to go faster, but you might not be able to start the car! I do think the generator brake plays a role in a high speed start, but was not designed, or sized appropriately to be used on a daily basis for multiple use every day, providing there is a mechanical brake ( which I have only seen drawings of, not the actual device).

At this point I can only tell you that the 3 legs of the transmission do not disconnect in "Neutral". I'm still working on the why... But I'm starting to like this Ockham fellow. -John

 

I always thought there was a physical disconnect based on what's in the Ford manuals. However, a few things have made me realize how unlikely it is:

1. No LOS for failure of the disconnect. This would obviuosly leave you dead in the water, so why bother with an LOS? Braking strategy would have to change to all friction, for one. There is an LOS for failure of the OWC.
2. No DTC for failure of the disconnect, at least that I could find. There is one for the OWC, a purely mechanical device. I cannot believe that failure of a device that would prevent any locomotion of the vehicle would not have a DTC.
3. A splined shaft engangement would wear out very quickly if used frequently. Even matching speeds wouldn't guarantee perfectly smooth engagement.

Having now posted this opinion in a public forum, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone post a picture of a disconnect in the FEH eCVT (Murphy's Law)

 

I wish I had one of the eCVTs to take apart we could settle this real QUICK.
I tend to think at this point gpsman1 is correct. If I have time I will hook up my Snap on Modis and will go to LIVE data and look a the speeds of thing in simi real time.

 

Permanent magnet motors that I have examined do not turn freely when not powered. When I turn the shaft, I can feel the magnets as they pass the field poles. The resistance is slight, but would create some drag.

. I wonder if "cogging" exists with our Hybrid motors?