THE EV ADVANTAGE
#1
12-07-2005, 07:32 AM
THE EV ADVANTAGE
It's December and cold and the FEH isn't doing that well on gas for much of you, sorry. As most of you know, I'm a EV driver with my FEH most of the time when I don't need max A/C. Its very nice here in Palm Beach County now and I'm breaking my old records set last spring with the FEH fully broke in.
First of all, my MTE is staying over 600 miles now at fill up. There is no question that EV will get anyone there in good weather, slower roads with less traffic and staying off the freeways. Recharging the battery with the engine and brakes is just fine, but the "Low Gear Advantage", "The Fake Shift" and now "The Fake Speed Shift" are proving to help me very much.
At first, I was amazed at how fast the battery would recharge using "The Fake Speed Shift" that I couldn't wait to post it for everyone to use. I'm finding out very few are interested in driving EV and maybe don't care and thats fine. For me, I'm not stopping at 600 MTE. The Prius and the FEH are going to have a meeting of the road around here and FEH is going to bring 5 big guys along just to make a point.
This is fun and saving money to boot!
GaryG
First of all, my MTE is staying over 600 miles now at fill up. There is no question that EV will get anyone there in good weather, slower roads with less traffic and staying off the freeways. Recharging the battery with the engine and brakes is just fine, but the "Low Gear Advantage", "The Fake Shift" and now "The Fake Speed Shift" are proving to help me very much.
At first, I was amazed at how fast the battery would recharge using "The Fake Speed Shift" that I couldn't wait to post it for everyone to use. I'm finding out very few are interested in driving EV and maybe don't care and thats fine. For me, I'm not stopping at 600 MTE. The Prius and the FEH are going to have a meeting of the road around here and FEH is going to bring 5 big guys along just to make a point.
This is fun and saving money to boot!
GaryG
#2
12-07-2005, 10:25 AM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
I’ve been trying to understand the winter fuel economy hit and if there is anything that can be done. (I have the 4wd and Navigation system. It will be a year old in 2 weeks.) The changes I am seeing between summer temperatures of over 60 degrees and winter temperatures of below 40 degrees are:
1. Everything (ICE, catalytic converter, bearings, motor, etc.) warms up slower. My commute to and from work starts with 6-8 traffic lights and is about 25 miles one way. In summer, the ICE turns off by the 2nd light (it’s almost impossible to not catch these lights as “red”). In winter, it’s the 5th or 6th light before the ICE turns off, and that’s at a complete stop. With the ICE on at each light, I lose 0.1 mpg for a total of about 0.5 mpg additional reduction in fuel economy in the winter. (I have not been brave enough use cardboard to screen the radiator to date, and not sure I ever will be. It may heat the ICE faster, but I’m not sure it helps significantly with the next three issues.)
2. I don’t know if the CVT has more drag during the winter which requires the generator to run more often, or there is a different set of optimization priorities between summer and winter temperatures, but in winter, my battery is essentially fully charged (right up to the “+” marks) while in summer the charge level was more often than not in the middle of the battery. This seems to translate into several issues: can’t use the “L” shift to turn off the ICE, can’t rely on double pumping the brake to turn off the ICE while the vehicle is moving. It’s therefore almost impossible to coast to a stop in winter with the ICE off. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty for fuel economy, but it means that it’s hard to make up for the 0.5 mpg loss at the red lights during the beginning of the commute in the winter.
3. Since the FEH sits out all day in the parking lot at work, the HV battery is cold. The difference between summer and winter temperatures means the HV battery power is reduced by at least half until it is warmed up by the engine. Thus, there is less battery power available for the hybrid drive in the winter (until the battery can be warmed up by the ICE) and the generator has to recharge the battery more frequently. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty to the fuel economy for this.
4. Accessory loads that I have in winter that I don’t have in the summer includes: heater and fan (was fortunate and didn’t need the A/C in the summer), headlights, intermittent defrost, and snow/increased rolling resistance. According to information from the Dearborn event, the heater/headlights/defrost represent about a 1.5 to 2 mpg loss. I’m not sure how to quantify the effect of the snow and increased rolling resistance on fuel economy.
So what this all means is that during the summer and fall (when it was warm), I was getting between 34 and 36 mpg. With what I have learned from the discussions here, I might get above 36 mpg on a regular basis when it again warms up here. However, based on my latest tank (about 3/4th winter temperatures, 1/4th warmer temperatures) I am probably going to get around 32 to 34 mpg for winter conditions. This seems to be consistent with the issues above, and is still twice what I was getting with my previous vehicle.
I would be interesting in your thoughts on the above.
1. Everything (ICE, catalytic converter, bearings, motor, etc.) warms up slower. My commute to and from work starts with 6-8 traffic lights and is about 25 miles one way. In summer, the ICE turns off by the 2nd light (it’s almost impossible to not catch these lights as “red”). In winter, it’s the 5th or 6th light before the ICE turns off, and that’s at a complete stop. With the ICE on at each light, I lose 0.1 mpg for a total of about 0.5 mpg additional reduction in fuel economy in the winter. (I have not been brave enough use cardboard to screen the radiator to date, and not sure I ever will be. It may heat the ICE faster, but I’m not sure it helps significantly with the next three issues.)
2. I don’t know if the CVT has more drag during the winter which requires the generator to run more often, or there is a different set of optimization priorities between summer and winter temperatures, but in winter, my battery is essentially fully charged (right up to the “+” marks) while in summer the charge level was more often than not in the middle of the battery. This seems to translate into several issues: can’t use the “L” shift to turn off the ICE, can’t rely on double pumping the brake to turn off the ICE while the vehicle is moving. It’s therefore almost impossible to coast to a stop in winter with the ICE off. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty for fuel economy, but it means that it’s hard to make up for the 0.5 mpg loss at the red lights during the beginning of the commute in the winter.
3. Since the FEH sits out all day in the parking lot at work, the HV battery is cold. The difference between summer and winter temperatures means the HV battery power is reduced by at least half until it is warmed up by the engine. Thus, there is less battery power available for the hybrid drive in the winter (until the battery can be warmed up by the ICE) and the generator has to recharge the battery more frequently. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty to the fuel economy for this.
4. Accessory loads that I have in winter that I don’t have in the summer includes: heater and fan (was fortunate and didn’t need the A/C in the summer), headlights, intermittent defrost, and snow/increased rolling resistance. According to information from the Dearborn event, the heater/headlights/defrost represent about a 1.5 to 2 mpg loss. I’m not sure how to quantify the effect of the snow and increased rolling resistance on fuel economy.
So what this all means is that during the summer and fall (when it was warm), I was getting between 34 and 36 mpg. With what I have learned from the discussions here, I might get above 36 mpg on a regular basis when it again warms up here. However, based on my latest tank (about 3/4th winter temperatures, 1/4th warmer temperatures) I am probably going to get around 32 to 34 mpg for winter conditions. This seems to be consistent with the issues above, and is still twice what I was getting with my previous vehicle.
I would be interesting in your thoughts on the above.
#4
12-07-2005, 12:38 PM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
I may not be the great and powerful GaryG, but I'll chime in anyway. 
So true it's not funny. I park in the garage, that while it's not "heated", it never freezes either, and I've noticed anywhere from double the time to warm up to four times as long to get it warmed up already. For the record, today has been the worst. On my long commute I go past four lights, then get on the expressway. In the summer, I'm ICE off by the time I'm slowing down at the second light. Today, I never got ICE off, and temps are in the low teens with moderate winds.
EDIT: That four times as long comes from a cold start having been in a parking structure that's open and unheated.
Actually, as I posted in the L gear advantage, L is now pretty much useless to me for automatic ICE off, the engine keeps reving up as I slow down, or goes off as I'm slowing down, then comes on and revs.
However, I find that the double tap still works, once the system is warm, all the time, every time. Additionally, with the snow and whatnot, I want it to be crystal clear that I'm slowing down, so for now It's stay in D all the time.
Yeah, this is a hard one to quantify, and ties probably pretty heavily into your first point.
Actually, I would guess the loss as much higher. Probably 3 MPG or so all rolled together.
Yeah. I was, going into mid November averaging 34.2 or so MPGs for the last three months. Right now, I'm struggling to stay at above 31.
Originally Posted by Green FEH
I’ve been trying to understand the winter fuel economy hit and if there is anything that can be done. (I have the 4wd and Navigation system. It will be a year old in 2 weeks.) The changes I am seeing between summer temperatures of over 60 degrees and winter temperatures of below 40 degrees are:
1. Everything (ICE, catalytic converter, bearings, motor, etc.) warms up slower. My commute to and from work starts with 6-8 traffic lights and is about 25 miles one way. In summer, the ICE turns off by the 2nd light (it’s almost impossible to not catch these lights as “red”). In winter, it’s the 5th or 6th light before the ICE turns off, and that’s at a complete stop. With the ICE on at each light, I lose 0.1 mpg for a total of about 0.5 mpg additional reduction in fuel economy in the winter. (I have not been brave enough use cardboard to screen the radiator to date, and not sure I ever will be. It may heat the ICE faster, but I’m not sure it helps significantly with the next three issues.)
1. Everything (ICE, catalytic converter, bearings, motor, etc.) warms up slower. My commute to and from work starts with 6-8 traffic lights and is about 25 miles one way. In summer, the ICE turns off by the 2nd light (it’s almost impossible to not catch these lights as “red”). In winter, it’s the 5th or 6th light before the ICE turns off, and that’s at a complete stop. With the ICE on at each light, I lose 0.1 mpg for a total of about 0.5 mpg additional reduction in fuel economy in the winter. (I have not been brave enough use cardboard to screen the radiator to date, and not sure I ever will be. It may heat the ICE faster, but I’m not sure it helps significantly with the next three issues.)
So true it's not funny. I park in the garage, that while it's not "heated", it never freezes either, and I've noticed anywhere from double the time to warm up to four times as long to get it warmed up already. For the record, today has been the worst. On my long commute I go past four lights, then get on the expressway. In the summer, I'm ICE off by the time I'm slowing down at the second light. Today, I never got ICE off, and temps are in the low teens with moderate winds.
EDIT: That four times as long comes from a cold start having been in a parking structure that's open and unheated.
2. I don’t know if the CVT has more drag during the winter which requires the generator to run more often, or there is a different set of optimization priorities between summer and winter temperatures, but in winter, my battery is essentially fully charged (right up to the “+” marks) while in summer the charge level was more often than not in the middle of the battery. This seems to translate into several issues: can’t use the “L” shift to turn off the ICE, can’t rely on double pumping the brake to turn off the ICE while the vehicle is moving. It’s therefore almost impossible to coast to a stop in winter with the ICE off. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty for fuel economy, but it means that it’s hard to make up for the 0.5 mpg loss at the red lights during the beginning of the commute in the winter.
However, I find that the double tap still works, once the system is warm, all the time, every time. Additionally, with the snow and whatnot, I want it to be crystal clear that I'm slowing down, so for now It's stay in D all the time.
3. Since the FEH sits out all day in the parking lot at work, the HV battery is cold. The difference between summer and winter temperatures means the HV battery power is reduced by at least half until it is warmed up by the engine. Thus, there is less battery power available for the hybrid drive in the winter (until the battery can be warmed up by the ICE) and the generator has to recharge the battery more frequently. I’m not sure how to quantify the penalty to the fuel economy for this.
4. Accessory loads that I have in winter that I don’t have in the summer includes: heater and fan (was fortunate and didn’t need the A/C in the summer), headlights, intermittent defrost, and snow/increased rolling resistance. According to information from the Dearborn event, the heater/headlights/defrost represent about a 1.5 to 2 mpg loss. I’m not sure how to quantify the effect of the snow and increased rolling resistance on fuel economy.
Actually, I would guess the loss as much higher. Probably 3 MPG or so all rolled together.
So what this all means is that during the summer and fall (when it was warm), I was getting between 34 and 36 mpg. With what I have learned from the discussions here, I might get above 36 mpg on a regular basis when it again warms up here. However, based on my latest tank (about 3/4th winter temperatures, 1/4th warmer temperatures) I am probably going to get around 32 to 34 mpg for winter conditions. This seems to be consistent with the issues above, and is still twice what I was getting with my previous vehicle.
I would be interesting in your thoughts on the above.
I would be interesting in your thoughts on the above.
Yeah. I was, going into mid November averaging 34.2 or so MPGs for the last three months. Right now, I'm struggling to stay at above 31.
Last edited by Pravus Prime; 12-08-2005 at 01:31 PM.
#5
12-07-2005, 01:30 PM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Originally Posted by Schwa
Also remember that winter gas has less energy per volume than summer gas, so that affects everyone's fuel economy.
#6
12-07-2005, 03:03 PM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Now pravus prime there's nothing great and powerful about me or the way I drive. Excel and others here can push any car they drive to the max FE that can be had. I don't consider myself in that class but I do explore to find what helps. EV takes no special talent.
Break-in is necessary to get the higher speeds in EV, and cruise control helps keep you there. I will admit "The Fake Speed Shift" I came up with is great if used properly. The key is slowly reapply the gas pedal from 1,100 RPM's back to 1,500-1,600 RPM's to maintain speed. You can pump a fast charge into the battery without wasting fuel. If you quickly reapply the gas, there no gain in overall FE.
The crap I want to counter is that the savings between the non hybrid V6 Escape and the FEH will almost never pay for itself. While there is nothing wrong with the V6 Escape, it was not considered by me. The V6 get around 20mpg and it could be pushed a little to get better I'm sure. The cold weather hurts both but the FEH takes a bigger hit according to you snowbirds. Using EV in city driving and a little mix of highway, I can get 41mpg. I just topped off a pure city driving tank to get a MTE reading I tried yesterday to get for a picture, and I was at 44.9mpg. Mileage like this gives a 100% increase over the V6 Escape. Its saved me over 200% in fuel cost over my Explorer. What I'm tring to push is slow down, drive EV and save big bucks then spread the word. I strongly believe the FEH has "The EV Advantage" right from the showroom. It gets better with more miles.
Sorry, I can't answer those cold problems. Rich and others seem to know the cold hard facts on that subject.
GaryG
Break-in is necessary to get the higher speeds in EV, and cruise control helps keep you there. I will admit "The Fake Speed Shift" I came up with is great if used properly. The key is slowly reapply the gas pedal from 1,100 RPM's back to 1,500-1,600 RPM's to maintain speed. You can pump a fast charge into the battery without wasting fuel. If you quickly reapply the gas, there no gain in overall FE.
The crap I want to counter is that the savings between the non hybrid V6 Escape and the FEH will almost never pay for itself. While there is nothing wrong with the V6 Escape, it was not considered by me. The V6 get around 20mpg and it could be pushed a little to get better I'm sure. The cold weather hurts both but the FEH takes a bigger hit according to you snowbirds. Using EV in city driving and a little mix of highway, I can get 41mpg. I just topped off a pure city driving tank to get a MTE reading I tried yesterday to get for a picture, and I was at 44.9mpg. Mileage like this gives a 100% increase over the V6 Escape. Its saved me over 200% in fuel cost over my Explorer. What I'm tring to push is slow down, drive EV and save big bucks then spread the word. I strongly believe the FEH has "The EV Advantage" right from the showroom. It gets better with more miles.
Sorry, I can't answer those cold problems. Rich and others seem to know the cold hard facts on that subject.
GaryG
#7
12-07-2005, 05:13 PM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Originally Posted by Green FEH
I was getting between 34 and 36 mpg. With what I have learned from the discussions here, I might get above 36 mpg on a regular basis when it again warms up here.
, and then only if totally flat and warm (but not warm enough for A/C).
#8
12-08-2005, 09:51 AM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Well, the crappy weather curse for all roadtrips was in full swing for me yesterday. The ice storm and headwinds I had to put up with in Texas when I left was nothing compared to the -2 temps I arrived in Denver to. Once the temps get in the single digits and lower, EV and idle stop can simply be forgotten. The FEH will try to do it, but the veicle simply restartts about 10 to 15 seconds later, and revs, and this is with a fully warmed up vehicle. The double tap gives the same result. Right now, I'm sitting at 38.8 mpg on the hybrid computer, only because of the 1,000 foot drop in elevation from Castle Rock to Denver. Temps are supposed to moderate today, but now it's gonna be subject to the worst possible city conditions - the dreaded drive a few miles and shut off. 
#9
12-09-2005, 11:46 AM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Perhaps I can get some clarification on something that has been bothering me. According to Ford (see http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/technology/index.asp), the electric motor will power the FEH up to 25 mph.
My 4wd FEH (13,000+ miles) behaves as follows:
1. In the cold weather (30’s and below), I cannot drive (accelerate even lightly) in EV mode greater than 25 mph: above that the ICE comes on.
2. In warm weather (60’s and above), I can accelerate to 30 to 32 mph before the ICE turns on. On very rare occasions, I have gotten to 38 mph going down hill while accelerating in EV Drive.
3. While I can’t consistently accelerate in EV Drive, I can decrease the loss of speed by using EV Drive, but I cannot hold a speed between 30 and 40 mph (i.e., I can get some energy flow from the battery, but not every much or the ICE turns on).
4. I have not been able to drive with the electric motor using the cruise control since the cruise control requires 30+ mph to operate (i.e., if I set the cruise control at 32 while in EV mode, the ICE comes on; if I have the cruise set at 32 and try to coast down in EV mode to 32 mph from 40 mph using an “L” shift, the ICE comes on at 32 mph).
5. I can get the ICE to turn off below 40 mph (but not consistently for temperatures in the 30’s and below) which is “EV mode.” I just can’t get much battery energy before the ICE will come on.
So, in cold weather my FEH follows the Ford statement. In warm weather, I can do slightly better, but no where near as good as some owners that report results here.
I realize that with winter now, I’m probably not going to be successful with running the electric motor at higher mph’s, but I would sure like to understand what to try if there are some “warm spells” this winter.
My 4wd FEH (13,000+ miles) behaves as follows:
1. In the cold weather (30’s and below), I cannot drive (accelerate even lightly) in EV mode greater than 25 mph: above that the ICE comes on.
2. In warm weather (60’s and above), I can accelerate to 30 to 32 mph before the ICE turns on. On very rare occasions, I have gotten to 38 mph going down hill while accelerating in EV Drive.
3. While I can’t consistently accelerate in EV Drive, I can decrease the loss of speed by using EV Drive, but I cannot hold a speed between 30 and 40 mph (i.e., I can get some energy flow from the battery, but not every much or the ICE turns on).
4. I have not been able to drive with the electric motor using the cruise control since the cruise control requires 30+ mph to operate (i.e., if I set the cruise control at 32 while in EV mode, the ICE comes on; if I have the cruise set at 32 and try to coast down in EV mode to 32 mph from 40 mph using an “L” shift, the ICE comes on at 32 mph).
5. I can get the ICE to turn off below 40 mph (but not consistently for temperatures in the 30’s and below) which is “EV mode.” I just can’t get much battery energy before the ICE will come on.
So, in cold weather my FEH follows the Ford statement. In warm weather, I can do slightly better, but no where near as good as some owners that report results here.
I realize that with winter now, I’m probably not going to be successful with running the electric motor at higher mph’s, but I would sure like to understand what to try if there are some “warm spells” this winter.
Last edited by Green FEH; 12-09-2005 at 11:51 AM.
#10
12-09-2005, 04:26 PM
Re: THE EV ADVANTAGE
Chuck, I wish more AWD FEH owners would respond with this kind of info about EV driving. We need a real comparison between the FWD and the AWD so people buying could make a better decision based on their needs.
Based on what your saying, your AWD with 13,000 miles is not performing in EV as a new FWD (mine anyway). At 12,000 miles I could get EV with cruise at 38mph but not hold it till a drained battery I have 16,000 miles today and I set the cruise at 37mph and drained the battery on my way home. This means I'm still breaking in and you still have hope for EV with cruise. Put those tires at 44psi if there not already.
Sounds like your right on with Ford holding the speed at 25mph. Your awswer is better than mine anyway. Let me confess, when my FEH was new and people were posting numbers of 38mph in EV, I though they were lying on here. I'm finding I must sound like the liar with my numbers now.
When it warms up for you, keep tring the cruise at min 30mph and coast down in EV. I've found this is the best way posible (on flat roads) as I have problems in my FEH above 32mph setting the cruise while in EV. Going down hill under 40 and setting the cruise will not give you much but a restart when the road get level. Rolling resistance must decrease and I'm sure your AWD will get better. How much better? If some AWD owners would open up like you, we could fine out. The same thing with FWD owners with over 6,000 miles. Lets compare our numbers here for EV driving.
It looks like I have the high numbers for the FWD at this point because no one has stated anything close. Right now my MPG is going though the roof with the "Fake Speed Shift" recharging the battery. Its taking the work off the ICE to recharge the battery and its getting better mpg while charging. The average mpg will settle in the near future I think at around 50mpg for the FWD with all these tricks and EV driving. I'm very serious here.
GaryG
Based on what your saying, your AWD with 13,000 miles is not performing in EV as a new FWD (mine anyway). At 12,000 miles I could get EV with cruise at 38mph but not hold it till a drained battery I have 16,000 miles today and I set the cruise at 37mph and drained the battery on my way home. This means I'm still breaking in and you still have hope for EV with cruise. Put those tires at 44psi if there not already.
Sounds like your right on with Ford holding the speed at 25mph. Your awswer is better than mine anyway. Let me confess, when my FEH was new and people were posting numbers of 38mph in EV, I though they were lying on here. I'm finding I must sound like the liar with my numbers now.
When it warms up for you, keep tring the cruise at min 30mph and coast down in EV. I've found this is the best way posible (on flat roads) as I have problems in my FEH above 32mph setting the cruise while in EV. Going down hill under 40 and setting the cruise will not give you much but a restart when the road get level. Rolling resistance must decrease and I'm sure your AWD will get better. How much better? If some AWD owners would open up like you, we could fine out. The same thing with FWD owners with over 6,000 miles. Lets compare our numbers here for EV driving.
It looks like I have the high numbers for the FWD at this point because no one has stated anything close. Right now my MPG is going though the roof with the "Fake Speed Shift" recharging the battery. Its taking the work off the ICE to recharge the battery and its getting better mpg while charging. The average mpg will settle in the near future I think at around 50mpg for the FWD with all these tricks and EV driving. I'm very serious here.
GaryG
