Ethanol!
#41
12-03-2007, 07:28 AM
Re: Ethanol!
Maybe a better calculation would be cost per mile instead of MPG.
John very interesting, I am starting to reconsider ethanol. My objection to it has always been selling it for the same price as pure gas. For me it really is cost per mile.
John very interesting, I am starting to reconsider ethanol. My objection to it has always been selling it for the same price as pure gas. For me it really is cost per mile.
#42
12-03-2007, 07:48 AM
Re: Ethanol!
There's a lot that can be said either way. But for me it boils down to BTUs. The fact is that E85 has 1/3 less energy than gasoline. The part that can't be changed is that it takes about 1/3 more E85 to go a certain distance versus gasoline.
In my area I paid $2.84 per gallon at Conoco yesterday. E85 was over $2.00 everywhere I checked, but I've heard it's less in some locations. You'd need $1.90 to break even. Anything more than that and you're most likely spending not saving.
In my area I paid $2.84 per gallon at Conoco yesterday. E85 was over $2.00 everywhere I checked, but I've heard it's less in some locations. You'd need $1.90 to break even. Anything more than that and you're most likely spending not saving.
#43
12-03-2007, 08:11 AM
Re: Ethanol!
Ethanol isn't perfect, but it's a helluva lot smarter choice than imported oil, and thats a fact.
The FEH does poorly on E10, yes I agree.
Now that I can't avoid it, I use E10 most of the miles I drive.
I'm still getting the EPA rating for my car... though without it, I would be doing better. But better what? MPG is JUST A NUMBER GARY!
And a lower MPG number, on E10 can impact the planet less than a higher MPG on pure gas. Plus 10% of what I use grows back next year.
That's something you can't say in Jupiter Florida.
But you call yourself an "ol dawg" and you know what they say about old dogs and new tricks....
No John, you are calling me the name "ol dawg", I didn't call myself that. There you go telling lies again.
It appears John doesn't get it folks, so let me explain what E10 does to my mileage in my FEH. When I fill up with 14 gallons of E10, I get 1.4 (10%) of ethanol. Normally, I can get at least 658 miles (47mpg) with 14 gallons of straight gas this time of year without any problems. With the 14 gallons of E10, I have to work hard to get 574 miles (41mpg) with E10. After that tank, I get straight gas for three tanks after, but my long term fuel trim is still screwed up and I'm still getting ~41mpg. Let say the forth tank gets things back to normal even though things haven't cleared up completely.
If I continued to maintain 47mpg for the 1st and 3 additional tanks, I would have gone 2632 miles on 56 gallons. Instead, the E10 dropped my miles traveled to 2296 miles on 54.6 gallons of straight gas and 1.4 gallons of Ethanol. This means I lost 336 miles with the same volume of fuel. Now, if I had totally reduced that 10% ethanol (1.4 gallons) to 12.6 gallons of straight gas, I would have traveled 2369 miles at 47mpg. This means if I had not added the volume of ethanol (1.4 gallons) and the additional 1.4 gallons times 3 more tanks (4.2 gallons) to make the 14 gallon fills of straight gas in the tank after, I still would have gone further. In other words, I would have went 2369 mile on 50.4 gallons of (4X12.6) straight gas. By adding 1.4 gallons of Ethanol, I only went 2296 (73 miles less) on 54.6 gallons of straight gas and 1.4 gallons of Ethanol. The Ethanol caused me to burn 4.2 gallons more of straight gas to go 73 miles less. How does that protect the environment?
The bottom line is E10 is a scam to make you use more gas than you would without it. So, big oil has found a way to get the public to burn more gas and destroy our environment even more. I don't care if I got the ethanol free, I still know E10 is a scam big oil has put together to make more money.
GaryG
#44
12-03-2007, 07:05 PM
Re: Ethanol!
Gary-
I guess you haven't read all my posts, so yo don't know where I work. I work for the state agency that permits ethanol plants in Minnesota. I also researched and helped argue the legislation creating the E10, biodiesel, and now E20 requirements in this state. I may not run a refinery, but I sure as heck know what I'm talking about. Guess what? My agency likes the stuff. It's the law here that all state owned vehicles be E85. Do you know how often they have to be filled up? I checked a Dodge Stratus out the other day. The person who borrowed it before me drove just under 500 miles and filled up three times--once before leaving, once at te destination, and once about half-way back.
You said that only people within 300 miles of the Mississippi can actually gauge the cost of ethanol? I live in the state with the most E85 pumps (325) and the headwaters of the Mississippi. There is a Marathon gas station outside my office window. Marathon has one of its major refineries here in the Twin Cities. Today, the regular grade gasoline was $2.879 per galon. The E85 was $3.489. That's a fairly substantial difference and, since it's a frickin' tundra up here (high today was 19--haven't hit 20 in a week) it's not helping anybody. The biosolids in biodiesel gel up here when it gets below 0. That means that all the engines that burn biodiesel, which are all of them, have to be left running in order to work at all, which saves absolutely nothing because school buses normally don't run at one in the morning.
You and I and the entire United States all disagree on the virtues and vices of ethanol. You seem to see it as the answer to all our prayers, while many others (me included)see it as a stepping stone. If you would read the data on the rate of water usage you'd see that this is not the way to go, especially since we're having droughts in the Southeast. Would you rather distill corn or provide water to families in the South? Or the desert Southwest? Or Africa? Corn grows readily on the African continent and we know that potable water is one of the scarcest and most precious resources available. The governments are often more interested in making money than helping their people.
The moss mentioned earlier is actually the algae blooms that sprought up every summer on area lakes. Harvesting it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money.
I guess you haven't read all my posts, so yo don't know where I work. I work for the state agency that permits ethanol plants in Minnesota. I also researched and helped argue the legislation creating the E10, biodiesel, and now E20 requirements in this state. I may not run a refinery, but I sure as heck know what I'm talking about. Guess what? My agency likes the stuff. It's the law here that all state owned vehicles be E85. Do you know how often they have to be filled up? I checked a Dodge Stratus out the other day. The person who borrowed it before me drove just under 500 miles and filled up three times--once before leaving, once at te destination, and once about half-way back.
You said that only people within 300 miles of the Mississippi can actually gauge the cost of ethanol? I live in the state with the most E85 pumps (325) and the headwaters of the Mississippi. There is a Marathon gas station outside my office window. Marathon has one of its major refineries here in the Twin Cities. Today, the regular grade gasoline was $2.879 per galon. The E85 was $3.489. That's a fairly substantial difference and, since it's a frickin' tundra up here (high today was 19--haven't hit 20 in a week) it's not helping anybody. The biosolids in biodiesel gel up here when it gets below 0. That means that all the engines that burn biodiesel, which are all of them, have to be left running in order to work at all, which saves absolutely nothing because school buses normally don't run at one in the morning.
You and I and the entire United States all disagree on the virtues and vices of ethanol. You seem to see it as the answer to all our prayers, while many others (me included)see it as a stepping stone. If you would read the data on the rate of water usage you'd see that this is not the way to go, especially since we're having droughts in the Southeast. Would you rather distill corn or provide water to families in the South? Or the desert Southwest? Or Africa? Corn grows readily on the African continent and we know that potable water is one of the scarcest and most precious resources available. The governments are often more interested in making money than helping their people.
The moss mentioned earlier is actually the algae blooms that sprought up every summer on area lakes. Harvesting it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money.
#45
12-03-2007, 07:33 PM
Re: Ethanol!
Gary-
I guess you haven't read all my posts, so yo don't know where I work. I work for the state agency that permits ethanol plants in Minnesota. I also researched and helped argue the legislation creating the E10, biodiesel, and now E20 requirements in this state. I may not run a refinery, but I sure as heck know what I'm talking about. Guess what? My agency likes the stuff. It's the law here that all state owned vehicles be E85. Do you know how often they have to be filled up? I checked a Dodge Stratus out the other day. The person who borrowed it before me drove just under 500 miles and filled up three times--once before leaving, once at te destination, and once about half-way back.
You said that only people within 300 miles of the Mississippi can actually gauge the cost of ethanol? I live in the state with the most E85 pumps (325) and the headwaters of the Mississippi. There is a Marathon gas station outside my office window. Marathon has one of its major refineries here in the Twin Cities. Today, the regular grade gasoline was $2.879 per galon. The E85 was $3.489. That's a fairly substantial difference and, since it's a frickin' tundra up here (high today was 19--haven't hit 20 in a week) it's not helping anybody. The biosolids in biodiesel gel up here when it gets below 0. That means that all the engines that burn biodiesel, which are all of them, have to be left running in order to work at all, which saves absolutely nothing because school buses normally don't run at one in the morning.
You and I and the entire United States all disagree on the virtues and vices of ethanol. You seem to see it as the answer to all our prayers, while many others (me included)see it as a stepping stone. If you would read the data on the rate of water usage you'd see that this is not the way to go, especially since we're having droughts in the Southeast. Would you rather distill corn or provide water to families in the South? Or the desert Southwest? Or Africa? Corn grows readily on the African continent and we know that potable water is one of the scarcest and most precious resources available. The governments are often more interested in making money than helping their people.
The moss mentioned earlier is actually the algae blooms that sprought up every summer on area lakes. Harvesting it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money.
I guess you haven't read all my posts, so yo don't know where I work. I work for the state agency that permits ethanol plants in Minnesota. I also researched and helped argue the legislation creating the E10, biodiesel, and now E20 requirements in this state. I may not run a refinery, but I sure as heck know what I'm talking about. Guess what? My agency likes the stuff. It's the law here that all state owned vehicles be E85. Do you know how often they have to be filled up? I checked a Dodge Stratus out the other day. The person who borrowed it before me drove just under 500 miles and filled up three times--once before leaving, once at te destination, and once about half-way back.
You said that only people within 300 miles of the Mississippi can actually gauge the cost of ethanol? I live in the state with the most E85 pumps (325) and the headwaters of the Mississippi. There is a Marathon gas station outside my office window. Marathon has one of its major refineries here in the Twin Cities. Today, the regular grade gasoline was $2.879 per galon. The E85 was $3.489. That's a fairly substantial difference and, since it's a frickin' tundra up here (high today was 19--haven't hit 20 in a week) it's not helping anybody. The biosolids in biodiesel gel up here when it gets below 0. That means that all the engines that burn biodiesel, which are all of them, have to be left running in order to work at all, which saves absolutely nothing because school buses normally don't run at one in the morning.
You and I and the entire United States all disagree on the virtues and vices of ethanol. You seem to see it as the answer to all our prayers, while many others (me included)see it as a stepping stone. If you would read the data on the rate of water usage you'd see that this is not the way to go, especially since we're having droughts in the Southeast. Would you rather distill corn or provide water to families in the South? Or the desert Southwest? Or Africa? Corn grows readily on the African continent and we know that potable water is one of the scarcest and most precious resources available. The governments are often more interested in making money than helping their people.
The moss mentioned earlier is actually the algae blooms that sprought up every summer on area lakes. Harvesting it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money.
GaryG
#47
12-04-2007, 08:58 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Ethanol!
This sounds very, very wrong.
Maybe you typed it backwards, or the station owner put the sign up backwards, because that is not a believable, or credible post.
Everywhere else in the nation E85 is ALWAYS less than gasoline... sometimes just a few cents, and sometimes almost a dollar.
Gas $3.489 and E85 for $2.879 would be similar to some rural areas of Nebraska. The gas has to come from half-way across the planet, the E85 (85% of it ) comes from half-way across town.
And Gary, I said a long time ago that I truly believe you loose 6 MPG from 47 MPG because I do too! But someone who normally gets 30 MPG all the time is not going to lose 6 MPG. I think the "hypermiler" style is making things look worse, or amplifying the effect.
I just drove 95 miles at 15'F going 64 miles per hour on cruise control and got 33.4 MPG with E10. I had the front defroster on level 2 the whole time, and the rear defrost on only the first 10 minutes. So I'm starting to think the effect is less dramatic when you are going steady speed, or maybe at fast speed. But when I "try" to hypermile around town with E10, I have a harder time breaking 40 MPG.
It really looks like ethanol is bad for you Gary.
I would even say that ethanol is not a good choice for the FEH.
That does not make it a bad chioce for everyone.
Especially if you are in the mid-west and can get E10 for 10-30 cents cheaper, and E85 for 40-90 cents a gallon cheaper.
I can do that, since I travel so much, I can find all the good spots.
This is due to the fact that most ( not all ) E85 is sold by independent owner / operators who can set the price to whatever they want, and some farmer co-ops would rather sell the E85 at the correct price, than price gouge the customer, which is what most chain stations are doing now, and State Agencies need to investigate this.
Ethanol is selling wholesale at ALL TIME LOW PRICES now... since there is actually a SURPLUS in the mid-west. Most or all of the ethanol producers have full storage tanks now, because they are making it faster than it can be distributed. Minnesota has the lowest price in the Nation, Mary.
The following prices are for E95 the form it is sold to retailer in.
Each "brand" adds 10% of their own gas after they get the E95.
*Date: Tuesday, December 04, 2007
Iowa: 1.9660
Illinois: 2.0855
Kansas: 2.1207
Minnesota: 1.9474
Missouri: 2.0623
North Dakota: 1.9718
Nebraska: 2.1435
South Dakota: 2.0389
Wisconsin: 2.0498
*www.ethanol.org
The Price to "Make" the ethanol at the distillery varries from $1.40 to $1.70 a gallon depending on the individual plant's location, and size ( Some make 2 million gallons a week, some make 200,000 a week, and yes, size and location matters! )
Now you can see how much "mark up" there is in your state.
It used to be station owners made 10 cents on a gallon of gas, but who knows these days. An "honest" station owner would only add ~15 cents to the above numbers, and I have found some who do.
Everywhere else in the nation E85 is ALWAYS less than gasoline... sometimes just a few cents, and sometimes almost a dollar.
Gas $3.489 and E85 for $2.879 would be similar to some rural areas of Nebraska. The gas has to come from half-way across the planet, the E85 (85% of it ) comes from half-way across town.
And Gary, I said a long time ago that I truly believe you loose 6 MPG from 47 MPG because I do too! But someone who normally gets 30 MPG all the time is not going to lose 6 MPG. I think the "hypermiler" style is making things look worse, or amplifying the effect.
I just drove 95 miles at 15'F going 64 miles per hour on cruise control and got 33.4 MPG with E10. I had the front defroster on level 2 the whole time, and the rear defrost on only the first 10 minutes. So I'm starting to think the effect is less dramatic when you are going steady speed, or maybe at fast speed. But when I "try" to hypermile around town with E10, I have a harder time breaking 40 MPG.
It really looks like ethanol is bad for you Gary.
I would even say that ethanol is not a good choice for the FEH.
That does not make it a bad chioce for everyone.
Especially if you are in the mid-west and can get E10 for 10-30 cents cheaper, and E85 for 40-90 cents a gallon cheaper.
I can do that, since I travel so much, I can find all the good spots.
This is due to the fact that most ( not all ) E85 is sold by independent owner / operators who can set the price to whatever they want, and some farmer co-ops would rather sell the E85 at the correct price, than price gouge the customer, which is what most chain stations are doing now, and State Agencies need to investigate this.
Ethanol is selling wholesale at ALL TIME LOW PRICES now... since there is actually a SURPLUS in the mid-west. Most or all of the ethanol producers have full storage tanks now, because they are making it faster than it can be distributed. Minnesota has the lowest price in the Nation, Mary.
The following prices are for E95 the form it is sold to retailer in.
Each "brand" adds 10% of their own gas after they get the E95.
*Date: Tuesday, December 04, 2007
Iowa: 1.9660
Illinois: 2.0855
Kansas: 2.1207
Minnesota: 1.9474
Missouri: 2.0623
North Dakota: 1.9718
Nebraska: 2.1435
South Dakota: 2.0389
Wisconsin: 2.0498
*www.ethanol.org
The Price to "Make" the ethanol at the distillery varries from $1.40 to $1.70 a gallon depending on the individual plant's location, and size ( Some make 2 million gallons a week, some make 200,000 a week, and yes, size and location matters! )
Now you can see how much "mark up" there is in your state.
It used to be station owners made 10 cents on a gallon of gas, but who knows these days. An "honest" station owner would only add ~15 cents to the above numbers, and I have found some who do.
Last edited by gpsman1; 12-04-2007 at 09:00 PM.
#48
12-05-2007, 07:42 AM
Re: Ethanol!
And Gary, I said a long time ago that I truly believe you loose 6 MPG from 47 MPG because I do too! But someone who normally gets 30 MPG all the time is not going to lose 6 MPG. I think the "hypermiler" style is making things look worse, or amplifying the effect.
I just drove 95 miles at 15'F going 64 miles per hour on cruise control and got 33.4 MPG with E10. I had the front defroster on level 2 the whole time, and the rear defrost on only the first 10 minutes. So I'm starting to think the effect is less dramatic when you are going steady speed, or maybe at fast speed. But when I "try" to hypermile around town with E10, I have a harder time breaking 40 MPG.
It really looks like ethanol is bad for you Gary.
I would even say that ethanol is not a good choice for the FEH.
That does not make it a bad chioce for everyone.
Especially if you are in the mid-west and can get E10 for 10-30 cents cheaper, and E85 for 40-90 cents a gallon cheaper.
I just drove 95 miles at 15'F going 64 miles per hour on cruise control and got 33.4 MPG with E10. I had the front defroster on level 2 the whole time, and the rear defrost on only the first 10 minutes. So I'm starting to think the effect is less dramatic when you are going steady speed, or maybe at fast speed. But when I "try" to hypermile around town with E10, I have a harder time breaking 40 MPG.
It really looks like ethanol is bad for you Gary.
I would even say that ethanol is not a good choice for the FEH.
That does not make it a bad chioce for everyone.
Especially if you are in the mid-west and can get E10 for 10-30 cents cheaper, and E85 for 40-90 cents a gallon cheaper.
Now, you bring up a good point that I agree with that E10 hurts my mileage more because I'm a hypermiler. In order for me or you to average 47mpg tanks and higher, we must hit those max MPG's (70 and higher mpg) out of the FEH to average it all out. I believe E10 drastically lowers that max MPG limit, so it will lower my average much more than someone who very seldom hits those max numbers. I've learned to settle with a much lower average tank (47-49mpg) to stay up with traffic, but I pour it on when I'm in the clear. If I were to drive slower all the time, sure I'd get those 50mpg tanks, but I'd **** a lot of people off. That's not fair and I refuse to do it.
E10 does effect everyone driving a FEH, and I think it would effect the AWD even more because of the added drag. Those that don't use hypermiling techniques are not seeing those high max MPG's near as often, so just highway driving is not going to change as much. However, I can't help but believe many of you want to improve your mileage to at least EPA estimates. I also think E10 will cost any FEH owner more to operate your FEH and cause more green house effects than if you used straight 87 octane gas.
How ethanol effects other hybrids and non-hybrid cars I don't know, but I do know how ethanol effects my FEH.
GaryG
#49
12-05-2007, 08:42 AM
Re: Ethanol!
John-
Thank you once again for calling my intelligence into question. I cannot tell you how much I love it when men think I don't know a thing about cars.
Again, I am sitting in my office. I am looking at the Marathon gas station across the parking lot, and now regular gas is $2.859 and the E85 has dropped but is still $3.399.
Now, hard as it may be for you to believe, I have graduated from college and am entering an MBA program, so I think I can read.
Sometimes, people can be so blinded by their appreciation/love for something that they can't accept another opinion. I'm glad gas is cheaper in Nebraska, but it isn't here.
Oh, and by the way, Nebraska's gas doesn't come from half a world away; it comes from Canada, along the crude pipeline that Enbridge owns and runs through Minnesota. I know this because my agency also deals with environmental cleanup and is working on the pipeline that exploded last week. More than 80% of the crude imported to this country comes from Canada and the Gulf.
Thank you once again for calling my intelligence into question. I cannot tell you how much I love it when men think I don't know a thing about cars.
Again, I am sitting in my office. I am looking at the Marathon gas station across the parking lot, and now regular gas is $2.859 and the E85 has dropped but is still $3.399.
Now, hard as it may be for you to believe, I have graduated from college and am entering an MBA program, so I think I can read.
Sometimes, people can be so blinded by their appreciation/love for something that they can't accept another opinion. I'm glad gas is cheaper in Nebraska, but it isn't here.
Oh, and by the way, Nebraska's gas doesn't come from half a world away; it comes from Canada, along the crude pipeline that Enbridge owns and runs through Minnesota. I know this because my agency also deals with environmental cleanup and is working on the pipeline that exploded last week. More than 80% of the crude imported to this country comes from Canada and the Gulf.
#50
12-05-2007, 06:14 PM
Re: Ethanol!
This just in, ethanol may not be bad after the long term fuel trim in KAM adjust to ethanol. I just learned from Wayne Gerdes that Debbie Katz was running E10 when I drove her FEH in the MPG Challenge at Hybridfest '07. This makes E10 very acceptable once straight 87 octane fuel trims are adjusted to ethanol.
For those that don't know about the MPG Challenge, it is a 26 mile course through the City and country of Madison WI to challenge each other on MPG results. I was able to get 61.8mpg out of Debbie's FWD FEH. Her fuel trim was adjusted to E10 which I did not know for sure until Wayne confirmed it tonight.
I feel much better knowing E10 will be fine in our FEH/MMH once the fuel trim maps are adjusted.
GaryG
For those that don't know about the MPG Challenge, it is a 26 mile course through the City and country of Madison WI to challenge each other on MPG results. I was able to get 61.8mpg out of Debbie's FWD FEH. Her fuel trim was adjusted to E10 which I did not know for sure until Wayne confirmed it tonight.
I feel much better knowing E10 will be fine in our FEH/MMH once the fuel trim maps are adjusted.
GaryG
