Economic logic of hybrids
#11
12-03-2009, 09:19 AM
Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 104
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Looks like the Toyota troll has left the building.
Sad that these type of posts are made by folks who can not add. With tax incentives, higher resale values, greater fuel savings, and reduced maintenance costs the hybrid has much less lifetime costs than it's non-hybrid sister. Add in the very extended hybrid drive train warranty and the hybrid costs even less.What is the cost of a 10yr 100,000 mile drive train warranty in a non-hybrid Toyota?
Does anyone here believe that gas will remain below $3/gal when the economy starts to improve? $4-$5/gal is where it will go, it is just a matter of time.
Adding a plug-in capability to existing hybrids will allow them to become even cleaner and economical. Can't do much with the non-hybrids though, except sell them and purchase a hybrid.
There is more than enough solid data to be found in a simple Google search. Trolls sadly are Google challenged. They love to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) as gospel.
If you ignore the non-hybrid owner's first post, the info here is very balanced. It is based on actual hybrid users facts and findings, not FUD.
Sad that these type of posts are made by folks who can not add. With tax incentives, higher resale values, greater fuel savings, and reduced maintenance costs the hybrid has much less lifetime costs than it's non-hybrid sister. Add in the very extended hybrid drive train warranty and the hybrid costs even less.What is the cost of a 10yr 100,000 mile drive train warranty in a non-hybrid Toyota?
Does anyone here believe that gas will remain below $3/gal when the economy starts to improve? $4-$5/gal is where it will go, it is just a matter of time.
Adding a plug-in capability to existing hybrids will allow them to become even cleaner and economical. Can't do much with the non-hybrids though, except sell them and purchase a hybrid.
There is more than enough solid data to be found in a simple Google search. Trolls sadly are Google challenged. They love to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) as gospel.
If you ignore the non-hybrid owner's first post, the info here is very balanced. It is based on actual hybrid users facts and findings, not FUD.
#12
12-03-2009, 09:51 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 895
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Looks like the Toyota troll has left the building.
Sad that these type of posts are made by folks who can not add. With tax incentives, higher resale values, greater fuel savings, and reduced maintenance costs the hybrid has much less lifetime costs than it's non-hybrid sister. Add in the very extended hybrid drive train warranty and the hybrid costs even less.What is the cost of a 10yr 100,000 mile drive train warranty in a non-hybrid Toyota?
Does anyone here believe that gas will remain below $3/gal when the economy starts to improve? $4-$5/gal is where it will go, it is just a matter of time.
Adding a plug-in capability to existing hybrids will allow them to become even cleaner and economical. Can't do much with the non-hybrids though, except sell them and purchase a hybrid.
There is more than enough solid data to be found in a simple Google search. Trolls sadly are Google challenged. They love to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) as gospel.
If you ignore the non-hybrid owner's first post, the info here is very balanced. It is based on actual hybrid users facts and findings, not FUD.
Sad that these type of posts are made by folks who can not add. With tax incentives, higher resale values, greater fuel savings, and reduced maintenance costs the hybrid has much less lifetime costs than it's non-hybrid sister. Add in the very extended hybrid drive train warranty and the hybrid costs even less.What is the cost of a 10yr 100,000 mile drive train warranty in a non-hybrid Toyota?
Does anyone here believe that gas will remain below $3/gal when the economy starts to improve? $4-$5/gal is where it will go, it is just a matter of time.
Adding a plug-in capability to existing hybrids will allow them to become even cleaner and economical. Can't do much with the non-hybrids though, except sell them and purchase a hybrid.
There is more than enough solid data to be found in a simple Google search. Trolls sadly are Google challenged. They love to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) as gospel.
If you ignore the non-hybrid owner's first post, the info here is very balanced. It is based on actual hybrid users facts and findings, not FUD.
I own a 2008 FEH, and in the current economic climate, with current conditions, the hybrid will take a long time to pay out the difference. If you keep your vehicles a long time it will work out. If you trade in every three years you will not make your money back. It is simple math, as you say.
Note that the federally mandated hybrid warranty is 150K for 10 years, or 100K for 8 years. But it only covers the hybrid parts: (basically) battery and transmission, nothing else, according to the warranty pamphlet that came with my FEH.
#13
12-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
The above is not true for 99% of applications. I think a PHEV would be cool, fun, and convienient. However, if the owner gets electricity from the grid, it is actually dirtier than burning gas in the FEH. This comes from Ford, and is one reason why they did not persue the PHEV market. A quote from Ford is the FEH produces 1 pound of harmful emissions every 15,000 miles. The quantity of electricity needed for a PHEV is pretty large. And getting power to your home is not very efficient. There's not a fossil fuel power plant that comes close to being as clean per mile as burning gas in a FEH.
#14
12-04-2009, 07:11 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Southwestern Pa
Posts: 1,747
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
The PHEV E85 Escape Hybrid has been undergoing fleet testing since Dec. 2007. I have read (September 2009) there was 22 of these rolling around in this country plus whatever exists at the Dearborn, Michigan Headquarters. It is scheduled to arrive for 2012 with the Johnson-Controls lithium-ion hybrid battery pack that will be manufactured at Holland, Michigan. Cleaner than the current HEV Escape? I leave that question to others.
#15
12-04-2009, 07:30 PM
Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 196
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
The above is not true for 99% of applications. I think a PHEV would be cool, fun, and convienient. However, if the owner gets electricity from the grid, it is actually dirtier than burning gas in the FEH. This comes from Ford, and is one reason why they did not persue the PHEV market. A quote from Ford is the FEH produces 1 pound of harmful emissions every 15,000 miles. The quantity of electricity needed for a PHEV is pretty large. And getting power to your home is not very efficient. There's not a fossil fuel power plant that comes close to being as clean per mile as burning gas in a FEH.
#16
12-04-2009, 07:47 PM
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jupiter, FL
Posts: 2,468
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
You appear to be making assumptions about future events. Maybe they will work out, maybe not. When oil hit $4 last year I thought it would not go back down - but it has...
I own a 2008 FEH, and in the current economic climate, with current conditions, the hybrid will take a long time to pay out the difference. If you keep your vehicles a long time it will work out. If you trade in every three years you will not make your money back. It is simple math, as you say.
Note that the federally mandated hybrid warranty is 150K for 10 years, or 100K for 8 years. But it only covers the hybrid parts: (basically) battery and transmission, nothing else, according to the warranty pamphlet that came with my FEH.
I own a 2008 FEH, and in the current economic climate, with current conditions, the hybrid will take a long time to pay out the difference. If you keep your vehicles a long time it will work out. If you trade in every three years you will not make your money back. It is simple math, as you say.
Note that the federally mandated hybrid warranty is 150K for 10 years, or 100K for 8 years. But it only covers the hybrid parts: (basically) battery and transmission, nothing else, according to the warranty pamphlet that came with my FEH.
Your '08 AWD FEH cannot be compared to any FWD FEH mileage much less than a Prius mileage. The cost of the added AWD system even adds to the loss of MPG and resale value in a few years. You may never ever see a pay out difference in buying a FEH AWD even if you were the best hypermiler out there. If the price of gas increases your still screwed with the AWD no matter how you cut it but the FWD FEH and FFH values will hold up much better. If you need the AWD system than the FEH is maybe less of a loss than a gas version but don't knock the FWD FEH.
The HV D/C converter to 12V converter is also covered under the Hybrid warranty components.
GaryG
#17
12-04-2009, 08:06 PM
Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 152
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Regarding AWD vs 4WD. I think your point might be apples to oranges. If a buyer needs or thinks they need or can use a 4WD then the comparison, as you suggested with the Pruis in an earlier post in this thread, is against the gas version, ie 4WD FE vs 4WD FEH.
Oh yeah...GO DUCKS!
Edit: Opps! I meant FWD not AWD
Last edited by spud; 12-07-2009 at 10:00 PM.
#18
12-07-2009, 09:37 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 895
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Hi Steve
Your '08 AWD FEH cannot be compared to any FWD FEH mileage much less than a Prius mileage. The cost of the added AWD system even adds to the loss of MPG and resale value in a few years. You may never ever see a pay out difference in buying a FEH AWD even if you were the best hypermiler out there. If the price of gas increases your still screwed with the AWD no matter how you cut it but the FWD FEH and FFH values will hold up much better. If you need the AWD system than the FEH is maybe less of a loss than a gas version but don't knock the FWD FEH.
The HV D/C converter to 12V converter is also covered under the Hybrid warranty components.
GaryG
Your '08 AWD FEH cannot be compared to any FWD FEH mileage much less than a Prius mileage. The cost of the added AWD system even adds to the loss of MPG and resale value in a few years. You may never ever see a pay out difference in buying a FEH AWD even if you were the best hypermiler out there. If the price of gas increases your still screwed with the AWD no matter how you cut it but the FWD FEH and FFH values will hold up much better. If you need the AWD system than the FEH is maybe less of a loss than a gas version but don't knock the FWD FEH.
The HV D/C converter to 12V converter is also covered under the Hybrid warranty components.
GaryG
I don't know where you are getting the impression I am "knocking" anybody, that was not my intent. Apples to apples: you need to compare the AWD to the Escape ICE AWD to decide the economic benefits. My having an AWD has nothing to do with the economics of the hybrid. They don't pay out unless you own them for a long time, and keep in mind that the vast majority of people are like me, being careful to maximize MPG to a normal extent, but not being a hypermiler - and not interested in extreme techniques.
If you are interested in pure mileage, be sure to include light vehicles such as the bottom of the market Toyotas, or a Honda Fit, and then calculate the savings after including the lower purchase price. Some versions of those vehicles are 10K less than a Prius...
I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it.
#19
12-07-2009, 09:39 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 895
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Regarding resale, I think that is a VERY local call. I was looking at a map of a national forest in Florida once. Didn't even know y'all had one. The whole thing had one (1) 80 foot contour interval on it. Dang, I didn't know God made anything than flat! My bed has bigger hills than that! 4WD is in big demand on used vehicles here and command a premium. In order to get out of town lots of Oregonians need to climb possibly multiple mountain passes.
Regarding AWD vs 4WD. I think your point might be apples to oranges. If a buyer needs or thinks they need or can use a 4WD then the comparison, as you suggested with the Pruis in an earlier post in this thread, is against the gas version, ie 4WD FE vs 4WD FEH.
Oh yeah...GO DUCKS!
Regarding AWD vs 4WD. I think your point might be apples to oranges. If a buyer needs or thinks they need or can use a 4WD then the comparison, as you suggested with the Pruis in an earlier post in this thread, is against the gas version, ie 4WD FE vs 4WD FEH.
Oh yeah...GO DUCKS!
#20
12-07-2009, 10:34 AM
Imported from Detroit
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,051
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Gary,
I don't know where you are getting the impression I am "knocking" anybody, that was not my intent. Apples to apples: you need to compare the AWD to the Escape ICE AWD to decide the economic benefits. My having an AWD has nothing to do with the economics of the hybrid. They don't pay out unless you own them for a long time, and keep in mind that the vast majority of people are like me, being careful to maximize MPG to a normal extent, but not being a hypermiler - and not interested in extreme techniques.
If you are interested in pure mileage, be sure to include light vehicles such as the bottom of the market Toyotas, or a Honda Fit, and then calculate the savings after including the lower purchase price. Some versions of those vehicles are 10K less than a Prius...
I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it.
I don't know where you are getting the impression I am "knocking" anybody, that was not my intent. Apples to apples: you need to compare the AWD to the Escape ICE AWD to decide the economic benefits. My having an AWD has nothing to do with the economics of the hybrid. They don't pay out unless you own them for a long time, and keep in mind that the vast majority of people are like me, being careful to maximize MPG to a normal extent, but not being a hypermiler - and not interested in extreme techniques.
If you are interested in pure mileage, be sure to include light vehicles such as the bottom of the market Toyotas, or a Honda Fit, and then calculate the savings after including the lower purchase price. Some versions of those vehicles are 10K less than a Prius...
I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it.
