e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
#1
09-01-2006, 04:28 AM
e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
I know this has been covered and the consensus on these boards was that the 2006 FEH and MMH could NOT run on e85. However, the following article suggests that the 2007 models can....
I have put the link and pulled out the passage that discusses the e85 issue. Would love to hear people's thoughts on it.
"Another advantage is this: While premium fuel is recommended for the Toyota and Lexus, the Escape Hybrid does fine on regular unleaded. Ford says this is the first hybrid with alternative-fuel capability, having been approved to run on E85 ethanol"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...TG3PK7R4T8.DTL
I have put the link and pulled out the passage that discusses the e85 issue. Would love to hear people's thoughts on it.
"Another advantage is this: While premium fuel is recommended for the Toyota and Lexus, the Escape Hybrid does fine on regular unleaded. Ford says this is the first hybrid with alternative-fuel capability, having been approved to run on E85 ethanol"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...TG3PK7R4T8.DTL
#2
09-01-2006, 04:52 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
Ford has some specially modified FEH they are showing off right now. I do fault Ford because they are really downplaying the fact that these are modified hybrids, and that their current production hybrids, the ones you and I can buy right now, aren't modified for E85.
IMHO, Ford is being pretty deceptive.
In the article, they talk about E85 and then go into the new 2nd generation hybrid system that going to be used in the updated 2008 FEH. Possibly, the E85 modifications will indeed be on the 2008 models from the factory?
IMHO, Ford is being pretty deceptive.
In the article, they talk about E85 and then go into the new 2nd generation hybrid system that going to be used in the updated 2008 FEH. Possibly, the E85 modifications will indeed be on the 2008 models from the factory?
#3
09-01-2006, 07:27 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
I saw an article on one of the modified E85 FEH's on Motorweek last week. It is definitely a test vehicle right now. Unfortunately, E85 isn't available at most places here in NorCal. Hopefully in the future we will see more of it.
#4
09-01-2006, 08:47 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
i don't want to run E85...can't get it here, it will also be more expensive and less efficient. why make your most efficient product less so...
#5
09-01-2006, 08:55 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
I am just as happy E85 isnt available. For the present E85 is still a net negative energy source - it takes more energy to make a gallon of E85 than are in the gallon of fuel itself.
There are also some serious social consequences of E85 that have not been thought through properly.
See this article in Fortune magazine : http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...3659/index.htm
Basically it takes as much grain to make 25 gallons of ethanol as it does to feed a person for a year.
If Ethanol takes off as an auto fuel we are linking the cost of food to the price of oil which has serious implications for the worlds poor and the social instability that could result from billions of starving could outweigh our current discomfort with dealing with the Arabs.
The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO.
There are also some serious social consequences of E85 that have not been thought through properly.
See this article in Fortune magazine : http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...3659/index.htm
Basically it takes as much grain to make 25 gallons of ethanol as it does to feed a person for a year.
If Ethanol takes off as an auto fuel we are linking the cost of food to the price of oil which has serious implications for the worlds poor and the social instability that could result from billions of starving could outweigh our current discomfort with dealing with the Arabs.
The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO.
#6
09-01-2006, 11:07 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
There is a lot of talk about new methods of making ethanol using switchgrass, wood chips, essentially anything with cellulose in it. It "promises" to be a lot more efficient to make than corn-based ethanol. Hopefully the corn lobby won't get in the way...
If the efficiency in manufacturing ethanol improves, and it can be made without affecting the food market (by driving up the price or corn etc...) then it would be a good thing until something better comes along. It does not matter if it lowers the MPG. Afterall, the real goal is to lower emissions and if Ethanol has lower emissions per mile driven (manufacturing the fuel + your car emissions) than fossil fuel, then that's better. MPG is only a means to compare across vehicles and the comparison assumes everyone uses the same fuel, otherwise the term is meaningless and should be replaced by some sort of "quantity of unwanted stuff emitted per mile" driven.
Cheers,
Roch
If the efficiency in manufacturing ethanol improves, and it can be made without affecting the food market (by driving up the price or corn etc...) then it would be a good thing until something better comes along. It does not matter if it lowers the MPG. Afterall, the real goal is to lower emissions and if Ethanol has lower emissions per mile driven (manufacturing the fuel + your car emissions) than fossil fuel, then that's better. MPG is only a means to compare across vehicles and the comparison assumes everyone uses the same fuel, otherwise the term is meaningless and should be replaced by some sort of "quantity of unwanted stuff emitted per mile" driven.
Cheers,
Roch
#7
09-01-2006, 12:49 PM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
The other goal is to migrate to sustainable energy sources... away from a finite supply of petroleum toward something(s) renewable.
A key to sustainability is also using the particular energy source as efficiently as possible... like with a hybrid system that re-captures and recycles otherwise wasted energy.
Perhaps the quantification of energy efficiency will need to change soon... something based on the potential energy (like caloric content) of the fuel/energy source going in, and the miles traveled.
Then there could be a second measurement of the emissions produced... we already have emissions ratings, though they may (or may not) need modifications depending upon what new energy sources emerge.
These two could be combined somehow to give a vehicle an eco-rating that would allow an approximate way to compare apples & oranges. So a conventional gas vehicle can be compared to a diesel to a hybrid to an EV to whatever... even to a bicycle!
A key to sustainability is also using the particular energy source as efficiently as possible... like with a hybrid system that re-captures and recycles otherwise wasted energy.
Perhaps the quantification of energy efficiency will need to change soon... something based on the potential energy (like caloric content) of the fuel/energy source going in, and the miles traveled.
Then there could be a second measurement of the emissions produced... we already have emissions ratings, though they may (or may not) need modifications depending upon what new energy sources emerge.
These two could be combined somehow to give a vehicle an eco-rating that would allow an approximate way to compare apples & oranges. So a conventional gas vehicle can be compared to a diesel to a hybrid to an EV to whatever... even to a bicycle!
#8
09-02-2006, 07:36 AM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
A couple corrections:
1) I belive Mr. Garrett made a couple errors in his NYT article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...MTG3PK7R4T8.DTL). Batteries: He did not specify whether he was referring to the 12V or high voltage battery. A quick seach of this bulletin board has not revealed a related story. Next generation motors and battery: I have not seen any word out of Ford or confirmed rumor in the official automaker news sites (autonews, just-auto, etc) regarding this. And of course, the approved for E85 mistake.
2) WaltPA wrote "IMHO, Ford is being pretty deceptive." I read the media release that Ford posted regarding the Escape Hybrid E85, where it calls the vehicle a research and development platform. (http://media.ford.com/newsroom/featu...?release=22424)
3) Timcob wrote "The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO." Actually the Green Leaf Road symbol has been on Ford's Flex Fuel Vehicles since (I believe) 1999. Need proof, keep your eyes open for any of the 1999 - 2004 Ford vehicles on this list (http://www.e85fuel.com/information/ford.php)
-------------------------
Efficiancy/emissions scoring: The EPA has established a new metric
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/
1) I belive Mr. Garrett made a couple errors in his NYT article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...MTG3PK7R4T8.DTL). Batteries: He did not specify whether he was referring to the 12V or high voltage battery. A quick seach of this bulletin board has not revealed a related story. Next generation motors and battery: I have not seen any word out of Ford or confirmed rumor in the official automaker news sites (autonews, just-auto, etc) regarding this. And of course, the approved for E85 mistake.
2) WaltPA wrote "IMHO, Ford is being pretty deceptive." I read the media release that Ford posted regarding the Escape Hybrid E85, where it calls the vehicle a research and development platform. (http://media.ford.com/newsroom/featu...?release=22424)
3) Timcob wrote "The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO." Actually the Green Leaf Road symbol has been on Ford's Flex Fuel Vehicles since (I believe) 1999. Need proof, keep your eyes open for any of the 1999 - 2004 Ford vehicles on this list (http://www.e85fuel.com/information/ford.php)
-------------------------
Efficiancy/emissions scoring: The EPA has established a new metric
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/
#9
09-02-2006, 12:03 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
Sorry Tim- Your recent post is almost totally inaccurate, and probaby based on out-dated information. Just like computer technology doubles every 2 years ( or less ) so do advancements in ethanol production.
Facts:
1 gallon of ethanol requires 0.55 kWh of electricity and 18,000 btu of heat ( from burning fossil fuel ) to produce.
Transportation costs for the corn are very low. 250 gallons of diesel are burned to ship corn to produce 1,000,000 gallons of ethanol, if you use rail shipment, and don't send the corn out of the mid-west.
Transportation costs for the ethanol are very low ( in some cases you can re-sell it, and use it in the same city it is produced in ).
Ethanol produces ZERO ( repeat, ZERO ) net carbon dioxide when burned.
The CO2 released when burning it is far below the CO2 taken in by the corn plant out growing in the field. In fact, EPA allows ethanol producers to vent the CO2 of fermentation ( the bubbles in your beer ) directly to the atmosphere. Millions of pounds per week is A-Ok. ( Some facilities capture the CO2 and sell it to Coke & Pepsi, others make dry ice, but none are required to capture the CO2.)
Interesting, yes?
Only 30% of the food value is removed from the corn. Few people know this.
For every 10,000,000 pounds of corn sent to an ethanol plant, 7,000,000 pounds of high-protein, highly concentrated corn meal is sent out as cattle feed, or mixed into dog food. In fact, the corn meal, with sugar and water removed, is healthier and has more calories per pound than the raw, whole corn kernal!
Farmers love to get thier hands on "distiller's grain" as it is cheaper, and better for their cows! ( Cow's don't need all the sugar after all, and a whole kernal has 15-16% water, that is a lot of weight when you pay by the ton! )
The RUMORS that ethanol will make the world go hungry are totally without merit. Did you know only 3% of all grapes produced are eaten by humans? Why not send more grapes to staving nations???
A biggie is corn is RENEWABLE. It won't go away. It will always be here. There will be higher yield years, and lower yield years, but should never ever run out.
You can't say that about petroleum.
We will always need petrolem until we master some sort of nuclear fuel.
Ethanol will help stretch the petrolem supply decades or centuries into the future.
It is not a fix all. But taking 20% less out of the ground each year sounds good to me. And in the end, isn't ethanol "Solar Power" for your car? The energy you burn came from photosynthesis after all... We can make in days what it took nature 100 million years to create. Sounds like a positive improvement to me.
The fact that it has something like 30% less energy per pound means nothing!
Look at how quickly you made it! Corn to ethanol in DAYS not millions of years!
Corn takes 4 months to grow.
Corn takes 1 week to transport.
Corn takes 48 hours to turn into ethanol.
And when you are done, repeat. Sounds VERY renewable to me!
Facts:
1 gallon of ethanol requires 0.55 kWh of electricity and 18,000 btu of heat ( from burning fossil fuel ) to produce.
Transportation costs for the corn are very low. 250 gallons of diesel are burned to ship corn to produce 1,000,000 gallons of ethanol, if you use rail shipment, and don't send the corn out of the mid-west.
Transportation costs for the ethanol are very low ( in some cases you can re-sell it, and use it in the same city it is produced in ).
Ethanol produces ZERO ( repeat, ZERO ) net carbon dioxide when burned.
The CO2 released when burning it is far below the CO2 taken in by the corn plant out growing in the field. In fact, EPA allows ethanol producers to vent the CO2 of fermentation ( the bubbles in your beer ) directly to the atmosphere. Millions of pounds per week is A-Ok. ( Some facilities capture the CO2 and sell it to Coke & Pepsi, others make dry ice, but none are required to capture the CO2.)
Interesting, yes?
Only 30% of the food value is removed from the corn. Few people know this.
For every 10,000,000 pounds of corn sent to an ethanol plant, 7,000,000 pounds of high-protein, highly concentrated corn meal is sent out as cattle feed, or mixed into dog food. In fact, the corn meal, with sugar and water removed, is healthier and has more calories per pound than the raw, whole corn kernal!
Farmers love to get thier hands on "distiller's grain" as it is cheaper, and better for their cows! ( Cow's don't need all the sugar after all, and a whole kernal has 15-16% water, that is a lot of weight when you pay by the ton! )
The RUMORS that ethanol will make the world go hungry are totally without merit. Did you know only 3% of all grapes produced are eaten by humans? Why not send more grapes to staving nations???
A biggie is corn is RENEWABLE. It won't go away. It will always be here. There will be higher yield years, and lower yield years, but should never ever run out.
You can't say that about petroleum.
We will always need petrolem until we master some sort of nuclear fuel.
Ethanol will help stretch the petrolem supply decades or centuries into the future.
It is not a fix all. But taking 20% less out of the ground each year sounds good to me. And in the end, isn't ethanol "Solar Power" for your car? The energy you burn came from photosynthesis after all... We can make in days what it took nature 100 million years to create. Sounds like a positive improvement to me.
The fact that it has something like 30% less energy per pound means nothing!
Look at how quickly you made it! Corn to ethanol in DAYS not millions of years!
Corn takes 4 months to grow.
Corn takes 1 week to transport.
Corn takes 48 hours to turn into ethanol.
And when you are done, repeat. Sounds VERY renewable to me!
Originally Posted by timcob
I am just as happy E85 isnt available. For the present E85 is still a net negative energy source - it takes more energy to make a gallon of E85 than are in the gallon of fuel itself.
There are also some serious social consequences of E85 that have not been thought through properly.
See this article in Fortune magazine : http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...3659/index.htm
Basically it takes as much grain to make 25 gallons of ethanol as it does to feed a person for a year.
If Ethanol takes off as an auto fuel we are linking the cost of food to the price of oil which has serious implications for the worlds poor and the social instability that could result from billions of starving could outweigh our current discomfort with dealing with the Arabs.
The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO.
There are also some serious social consequences of E85 that have not been thought through properly.
See this article in Fortune magazine : http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...3659/index.htm
Basically it takes as much grain to make 25 gallons of ethanol as it does to feed a person for a year.
If Ethanol takes off as an auto fuel we are linking the cost of food to the price of oil which has serious implications for the worlds poor and the social instability that could result from billions of starving could outweigh our current discomfort with dealing with the Arabs.
The use of the green escape hybrid symbols on fords FFV vehicles is really deceptive IMHO.
#10
09-02-2006, 01:34 PM
Re: e85 on new 2007 FEH and MMH?
It was pointed out that the writer got his facts wrong, and had confused the FFV FEH with the one he was test driving since he got a press packet from Ford about the FEH that mentioned the FFV FEH. His article was carried in a few different papers.
It was reporter error, not Ford hiding something. DO NOT PUT E85 IN YOUR CURRENT FEH/MMH!
It was reporter error, not Ford hiding something. DO NOT PUT E85 IN YOUR CURRENT FEH/MMH!
