2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
#11
Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
This post has a lot of interesting information. First, the Lexus NX is built on exactly the same unibody platform as the Toyota RAV4, which (I think most agree) is a SUV the same class as an Escape/MKC. How can the NX be a different (non-SUV) body style? Maybe I see your point though, SUVs like the Escape and RAV4 don't have body on frame construction of 'real' SUVs like the Jeep Wrangler or Ford Expedition.
Second, according to the info I see from Toyota, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have an 145hp single electric/gas motor mounted up front, and a 50KW electric motor mounted on the rear. I haven't seen anything mentioning two electric motors in the front with the gas ICE. Does Toyota not want to tell people about them?
For the 'predictive' AWD, it sounds like you are describing the multi-mode 4WD system like current Explorers and other SUVs have. You can set these 4WD systems for snow, rock, sand/gravel, or other conditions. But from what you describe, the FEH's AWD is so advanced that it doesn't need those mode settings and knows how to adjust for all conditions automatically. That's pretty cool my 2007 FEH could have a more advanced AWD system than a $50K+ 2017 Raptor, but why did Ford keep this a secret?
If electric motors can be damaged from spinning, how have pure electric vehicles been able to work for over 100 years without overheating? These motors have a 100% duty cycle. I haven't seen this overheating issue documented before.
Finally, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have a 0-60 time of about 8 secs, where the FEH AWD was about 11-12 secs as I recall. The 50KW rear motor really adds a lot of torque down low to help with acceleration.
Second, according to the info I see from Toyota, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have an 145hp single electric/gas motor mounted up front, and a 50KW electric motor mounted on the rear. I haven't seen anything mentioning two electric motors in the front with the gas ICE. Does Toyota not want to tell people about them?
For the 'predictive' AWD, it sounds like you are describing the multi-mode 4WD system like current Explorers and other SUVs have. You can set these 4WD systems for snow, rock, sand/gravel, or other conditions. But from what you describe, the FEH's AWD is so advanced that it doesn't need those mode settings and knows how to adjust for all conditions automatically. That's pretty cool my 2007 FEH could have a more advanced AWD system than a $50K+ 2017 Raptor, but why did Ford keep this a secret?
If electric motors can be damaged from spinning, how have pure electric vehicles been able to work for over 100 years without overheating? These motors have a 100% duty cycle. I haven't seen this overheating issue documented before.
Finally, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have a 0-60 time of about 8 secs, where the FEH AWD was about 11-12 secs as I recall. The 50KW rear motor really adds a lot of torque down low to help with acceleration.
While trying to find proof that the Rav4 Hybrid has 3 electric motors, I came across an odd thing. Most car reviews about it state that it has two electric motors, one of which is in the rear axle. None of the reviews go into any detail or don't even mention the transmission used. They do consistently claim that the Rav4 Hybrid uses Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD). HSD is used across the range of Toyota hybrids, and one of the signature features is that the cvt contains two electric motors. If the Rav4 Hybrid uses HSD, then by definition it has a total of 3 electric motors. Automotive journalists are notorious for factual errors about hybrids, and also take shortcuts where they think their audience doesn't care. I've seen a review of the Escape Hybrid that claimed the awd version used a third electric motor to power the rear wheels, which certainly was not true.
I am not describing the Escape Hybrid's awd system as the multi-mode 4wd system. My guess is that multi-mode 4wd is a marketing term applied to the same system as the Escape Hybrid's, but with the addition of some software controls that either purport to match certain conditions, or actually fine tune the system for those conditions. The Escape's system, besides monitoring for wheelspin, also monitors speed, throttle position and steering wheel position, among other things. So, for instance, when you pull away from a stop, it automatically engages the back wheels - because wheelspin is likely when pulling away from a stop. In that sense it does magically control the rear wheel engagement for all conditions and without driver control. I know it works surprisingly well, and I have driven a variety of less and more capable vehicles in conditions that took them to their limits. Multi-mode 4wd, as I said, probably is based on the same setup, but may or may not make it work better.
Edit: I should add that the engagement of the rear wheels is variable, depending on the calculations of the computer that monitors the sensors. I've set up a gauge to watch the degree of engagement of the rear wheel electronic clutch, and when it is not zero, it is constantly changing.
Manufacturers don't necessarily disclose all the technology in their cars. For instance, the Escape of the vintage we're discussing had something called pull/drift technology. They have electric steering. In some circumstances, such as a constant side wind or a sharply crowned road, the steering wheel has to be constantly pushed to stay on track against the tendency to be pushed off the road. The electric steering senses this after a while, and adds that input by itself. This is supposed to relieve muscle strain on the driver. Ford never mentioned this feature.
Overspin. Just look it up if you don't think electric motors can be damaged by it. I'm not sure if the danger is overheating or physical damage. The early Prius had a problem that the traction control system used to protect an electric motor against overspin was so aggressive that they would pretty well refuse to move if they got any wheelspin. To cure that the control was backed off to allow some limited wheelspin.
Just do a search for "prius overspin".
I will grant you that the 0-60 times for the Toyotas is much better than the FEH. I do doubt many people buy these things for drag racing. And presumably if you use that capability much it will hurt the mileage.
Last edited by xspirit; 02-16-2017 at 05:29 PM.
#12
Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
I am not describing the Escape Hybrid's awd system as the multi-mode 4wd system. My guess is that multi-mode 4wd is a marketing term applied to the same system as the Escape Hybrid's, but with the addition of some software controls that either purport to match certain conditions, or actually fine tune the system for those conditions. The Escape's system, besides monitoring for wheelspin, also monitors speed, throttle position and steering wheel position, among other things. So, for instance, when you pull away from a stop, it automatically engages the back wheels - because wheelspin is likely when pulling away from a stop. In that sense it does magically control the rear wheel engagement for all conditions and without driver control. I know it works surprisingly well, and I have driven a variety of less and more capable vehicles in conditions that took them to their limits. Multi-mode 4wd, as I said, probably is based on the same setup, but may or may not make it work better.
Edit: I should add that the engagement of the rear wheels is variable, depending on the calculations of the computer that monitors the sensors. I've set up a gauge to watch the degree of engagement of the rear wheel electronic clutch, and when it is not zero, it is constantly changing.
A more basic slip&grip awd system would not have engaged the rear wheels unless the front wheels spun.
#14
Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
The other day I was in a situation where I had to move out from a stop and turn sharply at the same time. (Getting out of a parallel parking spot.) The curbside rear tire was on bare pavement and the street side tire was on sand on the pavement. As I made the move, the street side tire spun part of a rotation on the gravel, stopped and spun a bit again. Which indicated power was being applied to the rear wheels, even though I was barely moving. And the front tires never spun.
A more basic slip&grip awd system would not have engaged the rear wheels unless the front wheels spun.
A more basic slip&grip awd system would not have engaged the rear wheels unless the front wheels spun.
#15
Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
Drive gently, coast to traffic lights when practical, avoid warmups and extended idling, keep it maintained, watch tire pressure, use air conditioning and defroster only when needed and slow down. I'd guess that 90% of the miles on mine was commuting to work and home. I had a 24 mile ride each way that was almost ideal for the hybrid. I took full advantage of that.
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