Hello,

I am a French newbie and we are about to buy a TCH.
After reading the forums for several hours about the TCH MPG, I was wondering if an hybrid was really good for us.

Here is the context:
We live in Culver City, CA - the weather is… OK (so no warming is necessary).
We do not commute. Most of our trips are under 20 miles (often under 10 miles). We try to use the bikes as much as possible.
One or two times a year, we are going up north in Oregon : that's our real big trip.

Questions:
We had previously a regular 2000 Toyota Camry and were really happy with. The 2009 seems smaller for our family and the fabrics not really child proof. Any real life experience?

Where is the Tips or How to drive an Hybrid page? I guess I am suffering from refrigerator blindness.

Also, many users are talking about their nav system. We already have a Navigon GPS that we use times to times and don't have to park in difficult conditions. Is this $5,000+ system really usefull to increase your MPG?

How do you check your MPG without it?

WTF with that trunk?

People talks a lot about the Insight, should we wait and buy that one instead?

Is there any taxes credits or any kind of rebate available?
The car seller is talking about a -$1500 from the factory.

With this economy in the toilets, we feel stronger to pressure the dealership for a real discount. Here is the configuration we want :


What is the lowest price I should ask/expect?




More coming later… Need to go to bed.
Thank you!

 

Well the first thing I would say is -- if you're doing it to save money you won't. With your driving profile you would likely never recover the extra cost. However if you want a car that is enviro-friendly or to support green technology or just to have something different from the norm then go for it. Although the short trips are usually hard on hybrid mileage living in warm California will mitigate things as the ICE warmup time will be much less than for the rest of us. I have the leather seats which might (or might not) be a better option than cloth. I have the nav option although I don't use the navigation. But the mileage and power flow displays are much better. Otherwise you just have an average MPG number and a dorky looking powerflow diagram in a little display inside the speedometer. As for price I can't help there. I bought mine in October when the dealers were just starting to lose their arrogance. Anyway I am sure you will love the car.

 

At the end of a few years, the difference in cost will be barely perceptible. If gas is up, you might save a few bucks, if not, you wont, but will a few hundred dollars change you life, one way or the other? Only you can tell, but with a $28000+ investment, to save what amounts to be a few hundred dollars over many years is really not an economic consideration.
Rebates are regional and change frequently. Do your homework with dealers in your area, as well as remote, since a dealer a few hundred miles away might have a different promotion.
Trunk has batteries in it so it's smaller than normal.
It's easy to check your mileage....see how many miles you drove and divide by the gas you used. The fancy meters, dials and gauges are eye candy, but after a few years, you'll realize that you'll get between 36 and 42 MPG depending on your circumstances. Does it matter to you if it's 37.3 or 38.7 for a 100 miles stretch? If so, pay for the fancy features, if not, just enjoy the car.
Toyota has a good reputation, most who own the TCH don't own an Insight so we can't help you compare the two.
The FAQ in my signature answers a lot of questions.
Most in this forum love their car, so you'll find few dissenting opinions.
It's a car, nothing more, nothing less.
I obsessed over the mileage for a few months and then realized it doesn't really matter.
I rarely look at the gauge anymore. I know it gets good mileage.
You drive the car, you put in gas, you go to work and you go home.
The NAV isn't needed.
It's a nice car, if you can get it for a price you can afford, you wont be disappointed.
Few, if any are.

 

The NAV system isn't necessary to "check" your fuel economy. You can go off the MFD (Multi-Function Display), but I find that's usually 2-3 mpg off. I calculate my FE after every fuel-up, and try to run the tank down to where I fill-up with no less than 14 gallons, or as close to 16 gallons as I dare (depending on conditions).

Your short trips, as others have stated, will hurt FE, but your satisfaction on long trips won't be understated. I routinely drive trips of 50-200 miles, and I'm quite comfortable. The fact that most of your driving will be flat (I would assume, especially on the I-5 corridor), you'll get an FE boost there (whereas I am constantly up and down hills). I do not have a NAV system (I use a Garmin Nuvi 660) nor did I spring for the package with the moonroof and leather/heated seats. I did, however, finagle a deal with the dealer to have a third party install leather/heated seats, and boy, was that a steal!

Basically, I paid $1500 for what would have been something like $4-5k factory installed, and I got 100% genuine, triple stitched leather seats with "bun warmers." mmm mmm! I use my heated seats year-round, it's very soothing on the back, especially on long trips. The factory leather seats, FYI, are not 100% leather everywhere, just the center section is leather, the rest is that faux-leather/pleather stuff. As for the moonroof, it might be nice for you in Cali, but then again, it might heat up the interior and reduce FE b/c of increased AC use!

The biggest tip anyone can give is that, if you're buying a hybrid to save money on gas, DON'T. That's a terrible reason to buy a hybrid. Yes, you may recoup the premium you've paid for a hybrid in 5 or so years (especially if gas prices skyrocket again), but I'd say the majority of hybrid owners buy their cars because they want to be environmentally responsible. I love the fact that I don't burn fossil fuels when sitting at red lights, whereas it sickens me how much crap everyone else is spewing going absolutely no where!

In the end, you have to ask yourself if the premium you'll pay is in line with your ideals/lifestyle.

 

Here is the context:
Questions:
We had previously a regular 2000 Toyota Camry and were really happy with. The 2009 seems smaller for our family and the fabrics not really child proof. Any real life experience?

I find that the fabric has not really held up well over time. I have the tan interior, and the fit around the driver seat has grown loose over time, and it definately is very susceptible to wear and tear. (I once had a child-seat in back, and it left a permanent crease that you can still see one and a half years later) I really recommend that you spring for the leather- which should be better for spills and clean up. If you don't- make sure you keep a blanket in the trunk if you ever need to put anything that could possibly damage the upholstery on the seats.

Where is the Tips or How to drive an Hybrid page? I guess I am suffering from refrigerator blindness.

There should be a f.a.q. link at the top of the Camry Hybrid forum page.

Also, many users are talking about their nav system. We already have a Navigon GPS that we use times to times and don't have to park in difficult conditions. Is this $5,000+ system really usefull to increase your MPG?

How do you check your MPG without it?

If you already have a Garmin, save yourself the money and skip the Navigation System. You can simply use the display that is by the speedometer to check your mileage. (Or calculate it manually if you want it to be accurate- as the nav and dash display tend to overestimate the mileage a bit.)

WTF with that trunk?

It sucks that it is that small, but I came from a 98 Camry and I got used to it. (Which had the same trunk as your 2000) I once fit 2 large suitcases, two small suitcases, 2 bathroom bags, and a laptop case in my trunk when my wife and I went on our honeymoon across the country- it took some finagling, but I eventually got it to fit. (I had to take a picture of it so I would remember how to repack on the way home)

People talks a lot about the Insight, should we wait and buy that one instead?

Is there any taxes credits or any kind of rebate available?
The car seller is talking about a -$1500 from the factory.

With this economy in the toilets, we feel stronger to pressure the dealership for a real discount. Here is the configuration we want :


What is the lowest price I should ask/expect?

Right now Fitzmall.com has that model for about $25,000. (including shipping.) That is the amount I would try to get. As for whether you should wait for the Insight or not, who knows.

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't think a hybrid would be your best option in your situation. You said that most of your trips are less than 10 miles. It takes some time for the gas engine to warm up after starting, so by the time it warmed up, you would only have a few miles left to go on your commute. It might save you a significant amount of cash to go with a nicely optioned XLE with a 4 cyl engine instead. (Which has upgraded fabric upolstery compared with the hybrid or CE/LE)

Side note: I would seriously consider waiting for the 2010 Camry. It has an updated look, and will be worth more for resale. If you don't get a hybrid, you can get one right now... the 2010 hybrids should be out in a few months.

Good luck with whatever you decide. No matter what Camry you get, you should be very satisfied. (They are way nicer than the 97-01 model- with the exception of the cloth upolstery)

 

I echo the idea of checking out www.fitzmall.com before you buy. If you don't want to make a cross-country trip, you may still use their prices as a bargaining chip with your dealer.

You won't necessarily save enough money on gas to pay for the hybrid. However, you may save when you trade your new hybrid in a few years. Check the resale value of an '07 TCH vs. Carmy XLE with the same equipment. The TCH seems to be worth $3000+ more on trade-in. That number may be higher if gas goes back up.

I was lucky and managed to time the market right. I sold high on my 07 hybrid and bought low from Fitzmall on my '09. See my earlier posts. YMMV

I'd suggest the leather seats.

The navigation may be useful if you travel on strange roads fairly often. It does a good job with lane-by-lane guidance, which I like. If you are comfortable with your existing unit, you can save the $.

Good Luck!!

 

I just bought a TCH on friday. Just the base model with carpet and p4 upgrade (sealent, sound shield, etc). MSRP was $27,478. I got it for $25,400 with $500 cash back for toyota loyalty reward. So $24,900 before tax and title with 0.0% finance for 36 month. first payment 5/4/09. I live in Arkansas so hope this help with the negotiation. I am please with everything so far. If I were to do it again, I would have wait to get a car without P4 upgrade because I think for $349 MSRP upgrade it does nothing to the car. Just more money for the dealers.

Price is $1500 less if you pay for it instead of financing.