Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
Originally Posted by Tim
American car companies have been almost single-handedly responsible for every 10 mpg land barge created in the last four decades. Toyota and the like are recent entries, and offer very few (like 2 or 3) models that are in that class. So let's not point the finger just yet.
Originally Posted by Tim
:) So now, almost all American hybrid entries into the market are the same 10 mpg land barges,
Peace, Martin |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
I'll admit to a slight over-dramatization on my part. However I'm not talking about sports cars, luxury sedans or mid-sized SUVs when I speak of "land barges". I'm talking about large trucks and large SUVs, sold and operated in the US. I don't live in Europe and don't know what they drive there. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are all recent (last decade) entries into American-sold large trucks (Tundra, Ridgeline, etc.). While they make mid-sized trucks and SUVs and have for some time (which I define as Explorer/Ranger sized), they only recently started making vehicles in the Excursion/Surburban size range, which is what I'm calling "large" (except maybe Toyota, who's had that size a vehicle for some time, but is arguably a small, if not insignificant segment of the market in the 70's and 80's). With that definition, I think my statement stands. Most of those size vechicles in that class offered and sold in the US in the last 40 years have been from Ford/GM/Chevy.
As for what's going on the market, here's info as listed on hybridcars.com Current (my definition of "large" is in bold): Accord, Civic, Insight, Prius, Escape, Lexus RX 400h, Highlander, Mariner, GM Silverado, GM Sierra Coming up in next 2 years: Malibu, Fit, Altima, Camry, Lexus GS, Tahoe, Durango, Yukon, Porche Cayenne, Saturn VUE, Sienna, Dodge Ram. On that list there are: Cars: 9, 1 is American mid-size SUV/Minivan: 7, 3 are American Truck/Large SUV: 6, all 6 are American I think that list supports my point. My "10 MPG land barge" may have been over-dramatic, but the MPG of those vehicles on that Truck/Large SUV list is miserable. I'm not going to split hairs whether it's 10, 12 or 14 mpg. In general, those vehicles are among the worst in the industry. This also highlights where the American car maker's focus is. You can give Toyota as hard a time as you want, but at least they're making an even handed attempt to put the technology in a wide range of cars. So is Honda. I'll give Ford the nod if they follow through with the Fusion. The others have their sights on the large vehicle market first. Maybe that makes sense because that's where the money is for them. I still think it's short-sighted. |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
In all fairness, the Land Rover gets something like 10-8mpg - right with American land barges.
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Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
b
Originally Posted by Tim
I'll admit to a slight over-dramatization on my part.
Originally Posted by Tim
However I'm not talking about sports cars, luxury sedans or mid-sized SUVs when I speak of "land barges". I'm talking about large trucks and large SUVs, sold and operated in the US.
Originally Posted by Tim
I don't live in Europe and don't know what they drive there.
Originally Posted by Tim
Toyota, Nissan and Honda are all recent (last decade) entries into American-sold large trucks (Tundra, Ridgeline, etc.). While they make mid-sized trucks and SUVs and have for some time (which I define as Explorer/Ranger sized), they only recently started making vehicles in the Excursion/Surburban size range, which is what I'm calling "large" (except maybe Toyota, who's had that size a vehicle for some time, but is arguably a small, if not insignificant segment of the market in the 70's and 80's).
Originally Posted by Tim
With that definition, I think my statement stands. Most of those size vechicles in that class offered and sold in the US in the last 40 years have been from Ford/GM/Chevy.
Originally Posted by Tim
As for what's going on the market, here's info as listed on hybridcars.com
Current (my definition of "large" is in bold): Accord, Civic, Insight, Prius, Escape, Lexus RX 400h, Highlander, Mariner, GM Silverado, GM Sierra Coming up in next 2 years: Malibu, Fit, Altima, Camry, Lexus GS, Tahoe, Durango, Yukon, Porche Cayenne, Saturn VUE, Sienna, Dodge Ram.
Originally Posted by Tim
On that list there are:
Cars: 9, 1 is American mid-size SUV/Minivan: 7, 3 are American Truck/Large SUV: 6, all 6 are American
Originally Posted by Tim
You can give Toyota as hard a time as you want, but at least they're making an even handed attempt to put the technology in a wide range of cars. So is Honda. I'll give Ford the nod if they follow through with the Fusion. The others have their sights on the large vehicle market first. Maybe that makes sense because that's where the money is for them. I still think it's short-sighted.
Peace, Martin |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
Originally Posted by martinjlm
b
European ultra luxury sedans have been imported to North America for decades with single digit fuel economy. Toyota's SUVs and trucks are exempt from the "evil SUV" comments, but GM and Ford's sedans and coupe that are segment leaders for fuel economy don't even enter the conversation. Why is that? Peace, Martin European Ultra Luxery sedans aren't much of a target because lets face it, they represent less than .1% of vehicles sold in this country. Most european luxery cars sold get good FE. The BMW 325i gets 20 city/30 highway mpg. The 12 cylindar 7 series gets much worse, but how many of them do you see on the streets compared to Tahoes? As far as SUV's goes, I don't think anyone has stated that Toyota's large SUV's are exempt from criticism. GM and Ford are just the usual targets because their success in this segment makes them the most visible. Also most of GM's hybrid development has targeted these vehicles while turning its back on auto's. I was given a new Impala rental for work the other day and achieved 20 mpg on a 250 mile highway trip. This could certainly be improved with a hybrid engine.... or even modern technology. While being a hybrid supporter doesn't mean you must "hate SUV's" as you suggest, most hybrid owners are sensative to the environment, and large SUV's are more damaging to the environment and are typically purchased for other reasons beyond practicality (Ego, Image, etc....) Sure there is a small percentage of the population that tows boats, and has 5 children, but my CR-V would satisfy the needs of most of the population while getting close to 30 mpg. I will also admit that part of my reason for purchasing my civic hybrid was image and my own smugness:D, but satisfying one's ego at 50 mpg is definitely an improvement over satisfying one's ego at 16 mpg. By redirecting criticism to the Toyota Sequia and European Ultra Luxury sedans I think you are missing the point most here are making about large SUV's in general..... their existance is just very hard to defend. Of course their success really says more about the typical American consumer than it does about automakers who are simply giving them what they want. |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
"GM and Ford both make high quality coupes, sedans, trucks and SUVs, most of which are very competitive with Toyota's offerings when it comes to fuel economy and are in all but a very few cases accomplishing that while providing the customer better performance."
When ANY other car company comes out with a 50 MPG hatchback with very decent performance (0-60 MPH in 10 seconds), with significant emissions reductions, then, and only then will I look away from my Prius. So far, no takers. Been 6 years here in the states... |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
One thing I have to ask of the folks that say they need a giant v8 LandWaster for their 5 or 6 kids is this: Haven't you ever heard of contraception?!
Why are families still having half a dozen kids when what we really need is a planned, phased population REDUCTION strategy. If the average American couple was more responsible in their breeding habits, there would be no *legitimate* excuse for owning a monster-sized SUV. Personally, I think human reproduction should be a strictly regulated, limited, and licensed phenomenon. That way, you'd REALLY help out the environment long-term. |
Birth Dearth in the 1st World
Actually, the developed world (N. America, Japan, esp. Europe) has a leveling off or declining population. See Newsweek article.
The consumption per person is the real problem, particularly as China and India grows.... Back to the topic of SUVs, Detroit has done the best job of social engineering their product. Instead of just saying "this is a good SUV", they appeal to power, status, machismo. In other words, they are not selling the craftmanship, but the image of the SUV. |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
I don't hate SUVs per-se. I own a Pilot myself and feel I have every reason to own a vehicle like that because I use it (capacity, towing, etc.). My wife also has a 1.2 mile commute - we can go a month on one tank of gas, and typically do.
I absolutely agree with Archslater's point, and it's one I've held for a long time. Very, very few people who own monster SUVs need them. 80% of them could get by with something much smaller. Even selecting say an Explorer over an Excursion is better - and Escape hybrid over the Explorer is fantastic. I'll boil this down to three points: 1) It's our own fault moster SUVs exist. We're willing to buy them, so they'll make them. What we need is a collective change in mindset that acknowledges we don't have to own something so excessive. Once we stop buying them, they'll stop making them. 2) Monster SUVs don't need to exist. There is nothing those vehicles offer that can't be satisfied by a smaller, more efficient equivalent - with the one possible exception of a very small segment of the population that has large families and large toys to pull. Even so, my Pilot seats 8 and pulls 4000 lbs. The top of my anoyance list is the Escalade, or these Tahoes with 24" custom rims. These vehicles cannot go off road, would be miserable even to take them up skiing, and 49 times out of 50 are filled with a mom, 2 kids in the back watching the DVD, and are used for nothing better than running around town. They are excessive status symbols achieved at the expense of our resources and the planet, and have no reason for being other than folks think that's what they need. See point #1. 3) Putting hybrid technology into monster SUVs is a sham (that is, the case where they're putting a hybrid drivetrain paired with the largest engine they have, like this Durango). They want the power and the power only. They want to make the monster bigger. The fact that +2 or 3 MPG comes along for the ride allows them to appease the masses and say, "look, see how responsbile we are?". I'm not buying it. |
Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
Originally Posted by Archslater
European Ultra Luxery sedans aren't much of a target because lets face it, they represent less than .1% of vehicles sold in this country. Most european luxery cars sold get good FE. The BMW 325i gets 20 city/30 highway mpg. The 12 cylindar 7 series gets much worse, but how many of them do you see on the streets compared to Tahoes?
Originally Posted by Archslater
.....Also most of GM's hybrid development has targeted these vehicles while turning its back on auto's. I was given a new Impala rental for work the other day and achieved 20 mpg on a 250 mile highway trip. This could certainly be improved with a hybrid engine.... or even modern technology.
Originally Posted by Archslater
While being a hybrid supporter doesn't mean you must "hate SUV's" as you suggest, most hybrid owners are sensative to the environment, and large SUV's are more damaging to the environment and are typically purchased for other reasons beyond practicality
I also think the assumption that SUVs are more damaging to the environment than cars is an oversimplification. Which is more damaging to the environment, a 22 mpg car or a 22 mpg SUV? Both exist in large numbers. My opinion is you'd have to know a lot more about each vehicle to make any positive assertion. As far as purchasing beyond reasons of practicality.......I love Corvettes. Do I need one? No. But I guarantee you I'll buy another one soon. It's not practical, but I wouldn't be purchasing it to be practical. Does that make me a bad person? No. There are a lot of other things that make me a bad person ;) . Should we castigate everyone who buys a vehicle that we (who is "we") find impractical? I could argue that for most people, the purchase of an SUV is for them more practical than my purchase of a Corvette. But very few people would criticise my purchase of a Corvette.
Originally Posted by Archslater
(Ego, Image, etc....) Sure there is a small percentage of the population that tows boats, and has 5 children, but my CR-V would satisfy the needs of most of the population while getting close to 30 mpg. I will also admit that part of my reason for purchasing my civic hybrid was image and my own smugness:D, but satisfying one's ego at 50 mpg is definitely an improvement over satisfying one's ego at 16 mpg. By redirecting criticism to the Toyota Sequia and European Ultra Luxury sedans I think you are missing the point most here are making about large SUV's in general..... their existance is just very hard to defend. As for re-directing criticism to Sequoia and European luxury sedans, it's not so much a re-direction as asking why there is not equitable discussion. There are more Sequoias and 7-Series BMWs on US roads than there are Hummer H2s, but H2s get the f/e criticism. Tahoes and Yukons get better fuel economy than Sequoia, but they get more criticism than Sequoia. I'm just pointing out how selectively the barbs are directed. Peace, Martin |
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