Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

I can relate. Having worked through several different "regimes" here at GM. I can say that today's leadership is a lot more environmentally responsible than some of the leadership teams I've experienced.

As for Ford's arrangement with Toyota / Aisin.....I believe that it was the least bitter of the medicines available to them at the time. Do not be surprised of Ford stumbles upon a better idea sometime in the near future. They've got some bright engineering talent in Dearborn. The Toyota / Aisin hook-up may be a stop-gap / buying time measure until they play their real hole card. Given some of the "emotion" that was expressed after the deal (Toyota intentionally "scooped" Ford on the announcement of the deal and, in Ford's opinion, mis-characterized the nature of the deal to the point of Ford making a public request for recantation) I tend to doubt this is a long term marriage.

Peace,

Martin

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Hi Martinjlm:

___I have a proposition for you and one that can only help move GM forward … hopefully?

___Since I have a few days off, I would be willing to drive out to Detroit and give some of your Hybrid team (including yourself) a real world clinic on the various hypermiling techniques we use each and every day. I know you can use them for design purposes in some capacity because I am killing everything GM makes here in the states let alone most of the Euro Diesels available overseas in my regular I4 equipped Accord! Even when I drive a GM automobile (my daughter is a manager at Avis O’Hare), they are not designed with the “Right Stuff”. This would include what many here can do behind the wheel of a hybrid. You simply have to design our hypermiling techniques into your next gen of vehicles or the corporation called GM may not survive past 2015! I do not know how I can softball this any further. GM’s present lineup in terms of FE is appalling compared to what Toyota and Honda are offering in their non-hybrid’s today let alone their hybrid’s and to put it bluntly, the Camry HSD is going to kill everything you have by huge margin unless you design the next gen mid-size with every trick in the book!

___You can promote your next gen Hybrid’s and non-Hybrid’s w/ BAS all you want. All it shows to us is how poorly GM as a corporation is actually doing on the ICE and overall system design front. I know you and your team have to be working your tails off but GM does not appear to have any real world hypermiling experience or it would show. The Silverado Hybrid was and is the end result of not knowing what the hybrid team was shooting for imho. When I re-read statements about BAS reaching for an 18 - 20% increase in FE for the upcoming VUE, I am really disappointed and cannot simply sit back and let it stand if I can help it. Your team is not thinking far enough outside the box let alone into the future and I want at least one American automobile manufacturer to succeed in the worst way because this is all we have :(

___If you are interested, PM or E-Mail me. A healthy stipend for my time, fuel, and hotel for a night or two is all I would expect from GM directly. I am sure you would need me to sign an NDA and I would have no problems with that necessity. I would also hope you would have a Prius, HCH, Escape HEV, whatever on hand to pull their secrets (the ones your team may not have a clue about) as a hypermiler sees and uses day in and day out. It should give your team at least a chance to design around some of those patents “properly” as they begin to see and then think outside the box. If you don’t have any of the competitor’s hybrids on hand, look into your parking lots and ask to borrow one for the day. Not everybody at GM can be driving just GM only vehicle’s, right? IIRC, you hop from 90 day GM automobile to the next 90 day GM automobile. Do you not see the problem that I see with that practice?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Wayne,

I can appreciate your passion for hybrids and your knowledge of hypermiling. Your offer is a generous one, but one that I cannot take you up on at this time. As my signature indicates, I am NOT the official spokesperson for GM on hybrid related issues. There are activities that are being undertaken in our hybrid development community that I cannot and will not detail, but at the end of the day, I think the results will be quite impressive. GM BAS hybrid products may not fit your requirements, but we do believe there is a solid market segment for those products. If we were stopping there, I might share some of your concerns, but the fact of the matter is, we are not stopping there.

As I've said, I am not an official spokesperson for GM, but you might find some of the words of Beth Lowery, GM VP of Energy and Environment fairly interesting. They do, however, tend to contradict some of your opinions on GM's competitive position wrt fuel economy.

http://www.gm.com/automotive/fueleconomy/welcome.html

Peace,

Martin

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Hi Martinjlm:

___At least you state it as you see it …

___In regards to Beth, she has got to be kidding!___This is exactly the problem! My non-hybrid Honda Accord EX-L w/ NAVI and Auto is EPA rated at 24/34 and I have received 47.9 mpg from her over the last 22,000 miles! You have the blind leading the blind in your leadership ranks and I am extremely worried for GM’s as well as your future :angry:

___You may not have seen the recent thread here at GH that was discussing some of GM’s latest TV spots and the > 30 mpg rating on a number of platforms etc. Many here are amused whereas I am both amused and deeply saddened at the same time :( Case in point. A 255 HP AH w/ Auto, semi-lux interior appointments, 0 - 60 time in 6.5 seconds, etc. and it has higher EPA ratings (29/37) then anything GM has available! An Aveo that GM would be lucky to make $500 a crack on (if they aren’t taking a loss on them at GM Employee pricing) has lower FE then even the highest performance Honda hybrid let alone the non-hybrid Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla and especially the HCH and Prius II! What will GM do if Toyota actually brings over the Yaris w/ AS? When is someone in your corporation going to shake the cobwebs off? Even the most “Die Hard”, “Raise the Flag”, “I have been purchasing Ford/Chevrolet for the last 35 years”, “I cannot stand Japanese junk”, future automobile purchaser will soon be in the Honda/Toyota dealership because they have to drive to work on a budget and they are getting sick and tired of purchasing oil from some of the most unsavory of countries even though we barely touch the middle east for our supply … I am sure you catch my drift.

___Anyway, I know you are not the spokesman but $%( $#@(*% anyway, get Beth in here and start using what we do day in and day out. Maybe she needs to do a case study on the rise and fall of Johnson/Evinrude under the “Outboard Marine Corporation” as just one example of where I see GM heading! One of GM’s former truck division employees actually came up with and managed the design of the Ridgeline. Although I don’t think that truck is going to hurt you, the Civic, HCH, Accord, Corolla, Prius II, and Camry are doing more damage each and every day :cry:

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Here's one of the things I previously couldn't talk about....

http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...S-UPDATE-3.XML

Peace,

Martin

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Martin,

I think you are missing Wayne's point here. Even in the article they discuss providing 25% greater efficiency. 25% is better than nothing, but pales in comparison to what is already available in terms of fuel economy.

I am certainly not an overall GM basher, I don't want them to go belly-up, but I do want them to do something besides poster about how much they have in the works (now that they have officially decided that hybrids don't stink). You may be able to understand why few here have your optimism of the success of GM hybrids. I mean, what results have we seen so far? The Sierra mild hybrid?

Plus Toyota and Honda has probably at least a 4 or 5 year lead in the technology dept. Toyota is several years in to it's second generation, and Honda is already increasing the efficiency of their system. I find it hard to believe that GM is going to come out of the box with their first generation and compete with the third generation of Toyota and Honda. I am sure there are many smart people at Dearborn, but I am just as sure there are many smart people in Japan working on the third generation as well.

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

This is great news. I thought this was already reported though. Anyway not to be a neigh sayer but there are two issues.

1) They are just starting on the project now so that any benifits are likely more tha 5 years and possible 10 years away.

2) GM is working on hybrid technology but they don't seem to be working on getting the engine as efficient as it can be. If they stick with their normal engines and get say 30mpg out of it then 25% is a total 37mpg. Thats still lower than a lot of honda and toyota non hybrids.

Martin, I hate to be negative in my post but realy GM has to do better. I think there are a lot of us here that would love to see a GM car with 50mpg. I have a question. Does GM make an engine smaller than 2.2L? Maybe they should be looking at making the engines smaller.

I hope you don't feel like we are all against GM because a lot of us here aren't. The only reason we are negative is that GM is so far behind the ball and everything being reported isn't very encouraging. They use numbers like 25% increase which is basicly meaningless. If they had a car that already did 40mpg then 25% would be worth touting.

BTW Martin I realy like the fact you are here to post these press releases and keep us aware of whats going on in GM. I suspect just because they are getting a slow start that that won't always be the case and I suspect as time goes on there will be better and better news from GM.

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Hi Martinjlm:

___I wish you had better news :( I know you cannot post internal FTP75/HWFET numbers on the 07 P1/2 based automobiles but I am praying to god those large SUV’s are punching out high 20’s - low to mid-30’s or you are screwed …

___Let me give you some real world examples …

Chevrolet Tahoe AWD - 15/19 or 14/18 mpg
GMC Yukon 2WD - 16/20 or 15/20 mpg
GMC Yukon XL 4WD - 14/18 mpg

___My father owns the Full-size Yukon 2WD and has ~ 3,000 miles on it in the last 2 years because gas is too expensive to run the thing in his eyes. I can only get about 23 - 24 out of it although I have only driven it for about 75 miles myself.

Acura MDX AWD - 17/23

Return from the U of I last year with all my sons junk …
https://www.greenhybrid.com/share/fi...Shot_Small.jpg

Return from Mackinaw Island August 05. 101 miles of local (< 5 minute drives) and 501 miles highway.
https://www.greenhybrid.com/share/fi...eturn_Trip.jpg

Trip to the United Center in a Blizzard to see the Harlem Globetrotter’s.
https://www.greenhybrid.com/share/fi..._Acura_MDX.jpg

___I do not drive the MDX that often but when I do, she can do some real damage to the EPA estimates …

___And how does that pertain to this thread … 25% increase by hybridizing sets you up for 17/24 per current EPA on the GM SUV’s. 17/24? That is barely worth mentioning with fuel between $2.50 and $3.50 over the next 2 + years if we are lucky! Most major fields around the world are in decline except some in the Middle East and the stop gaps in the GoM … We had a little taste of the GoM problem in the last week or two as well :(

___A picture is worth 1,000 words and the chiefs at GM probably have less of an idea then we do about where we are headed …

EIA - International Petroleum Information:

http://photos23.flickr.com/33239449_04cacf2dda_o.gif

___Just to give you an idea as to how high prices can climb in the future, the above stat was achieved before Katrina was even a TS let alone a Class 3 - 5 that knocked out some of our GoM production. Do you think EPA rated - 17/24 based SUV’s are going to sell in significant numbers if gasoline costs $4.00/gallon? $5.00 per gallon? How about $6.00/gallon? This thing just keeps getting uglier and uglier and I cannot stand idly by and watch another great American company go down the tubes because of their lack of planning and especially lack of vision.

___Thanks to both Monkey and Tbaleno for adding information to the thread in a much more eloquent manner then I am currently.

___Finally, some here think the BAS is not a hybrid system. Although I do not know the intricate details as Martin knows them, it DOES supply propulsion similar to Honda’s IMA according to the press releases so it is a hybrid system in my eyes.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

Keep in mind that 25% is a press number. It was derived from discussion on what is expected from the system that will be integrated into a Full-Size SUV (MDX is a midsize). Similar type systems in mid-sized SUVs should net significantly better improvements.

I can certainly identify with your point here. The Silverado is what it is. There have been many significant new learnings since those products launched. The proof of the two-mode system will have to come when iron is on the street. Respect is earned, not given.

Yes, Toyota and Honda do have a significant lead in passenger vehicle applications and that will be very difficult to overcome. I'd suggest that the cost side of the equation will be more difficult than the technical side. As I have posted in another thread somewhere on this board, Toyota's RX / Highlander product is the result from a project GM & Toyota were working on jointly before GM decided it made more sense to scale down the bus system that has been in development and in production for almost as long as the Prius. GM dropped the project and Toyota kept going. There is experience and talent in the Toyota and Honda camps. There is also significant experience & talent in GM's camp. Apparently other manufacturers recognize that and are willing to tag along and help fund the programs.

Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
 

The DCX piece was reported. If you'd already heard of the BMW piece, then you've got darn good sources.

All I can tell you is that there is consistent work being done on powertrain technology, as well as vehicle mass, aero and rolling resistance. Since some of these projects are independent, they are not easily factored into projections for products undergoing parallel development.

Nothing negative in your post. What I'm hearing from you is "You guys need to get better" Agreed. We know that and we are.

As in most public forums, the population runs the gamit from "I don't care what you say, you suck" to "I'll believe it when I see it" to "Gee, really? When can I buy one?" I really like the last two ;)

I aim to please, to inform, and to learn. I'm having a good time.

Peace,

Martin