Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Sounds very frustrating. Sympathies.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

(1) Try other Honda dealerships.
(2) Try "other than Honda" repair shops. The task can't be THAT complicated.
(3) Try collision repair shops. I bet most of them have had to replace a pack on a Prius or a Civic by now.
(4) Buy a used pack from a wrecked car (at junkyard, etc).

Any or all of these may produce a better total cost.
I owned a Jaguar and still own a Mercedes, and sometimes (often, actually) you don't want to take it anywhere NEAR the dealership for repairs. The costs are just too prohibitive, period. (I can tell you some horror stories.) In this case, Honda (at least your dealership) is just too expensive for this task. I suspect this should cost around $3 installed, with diligent searching. Still **** expensive, I know, but this IS still sort of bleeding-edge technology.

Expecting Honda corporate to help you out is just wishful thinking, IMO.

Good luck, and Tim is right - we may all face this issue/cost someday. Keep us posted.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I don't think it's a gimmick - I think it's a start. And it still achieved one noteworthy goal in my opinion - econo-box mileage in a regular sized, reasonably powered car (and I don't count a stripped-down Civic EX 5-speed a close competitor - it's not a car I would have purchased).

I'll agree with your overall point however - if the next generation hybrid isn't a big leap in improvement (like 80-90 mpg) then I'd be hard pressed to justify buying another - but I'm going to be in this one for 4-5 more years anyway so I'm optimistic that will happen.

Also, I think 2K is a big pill to swallow - right on the border in my mind. Big enough to make it very bad press, and make it VERY difficult for us to sell/trade the car if the batteries were original. The "story" I got when I bought it is they thought it would be a $5-600 repair in 2011 when my warranty was up. They'd better get it under 1K or I think we're in trouble.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Sorry for your frustration and sorry some have not been more sympathetic.

Before I got my current job I could not afford a new car and drove old junk. The old junk would break pretty much every month and every month I would go to the car dealer and no matter what was broke they wanted $250.00. $250.00/month would have made the payments on a nice new car so I was not about to spend $250 a month on old junk. Since my car was well beyond the warranty I did not expect the car dealer to give me a break and since I couldn't afford the car dealer's prices I found other ways to fix things.

For example: A high pressure steering hose went out one time and the car dealer wanted (you guessed it) $250.00 for a new hose (part only). I took the old hose to a hydraulic equipment repair shop and they told me that they could not help (at first) because of the special fittings used on the ends of the hoses. They did not have any such fittings. There was nothing wrong with the metal fittings on the old hose but they were already crimped on the old hose and the old hose had a hole in it. Hmmmmm what to do??? I ended up cutting the fittings off of the old hose and had a machine shop weld them to modern high pressure fittings. Then I took these hybrid fittings back to the hydraulic shop and had them make a hose using the hybrid fittings. Sure it was a pain in the neck but the whole thing cost less than $100 and the new hose was rated for about 4 times the pressure of the old hose.

Moral of the story is that where there is will there is a way. Your entire pack may be bad because of only a few bad cells. I think the whole "hybrid" thing has people spooked into thinking something about the cars is mystical. It is just a battery! Nothing fancy about it.

Pictured is the Insight pack, the Civic's is similar.
http://www.insightcentral.net/_images/battery.jpg

For more info see:

http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl...enbattery.html

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I don't know, you are forgetting that most cars at 150k miles, has something major to be replaced. So you have to keep that in mind.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Dude! I feel where you are coming from. It seems to me that you are just dissapointed in the Mark Up. Its just like when you go to a mechanic and the part cost 20 bucks but the labor is 300. Its like, dude, you know you can cut back on some of that labor to make it more realistic for me to be able to pay for it.

you may be past the warrenty, but i agree that they should be willing to cut back on that markup. unfortunatly companies tend not to be like that, and it sux. I always feel like, why not take my 2800 that i can afford, rather than me not give you anything because i can't afford 4000!!??

what works against us is that there are people are can and will pay that money no prob, so those who can not are looked at as business that isn't needed.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

It's a bunch of RC battery packed together.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Absolutely - that was my rationale for the Hybrid. What car wouldn't need a $600 repair at 150K? That's reasonable to me - even if I know it's a guarantee to happen. I just don't think a $2000 guaranteed repair is reasonable. Think about it - when you go to trade in your HCH with 140K on the original batteries, anyone who has done any amount of research is going to want $2000 knocked off the price. Sold privately - the same thing. It's going to get us all unless it gets better.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

So you're talking about the law of suppy and demand? :shade:

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

in a nutshell!:P

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

If anyone is that sure hybrids are a fading fad, invest in Chrysler and Ford rather than Toyota and Honda.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Why, Honda makes perfectly good non-hybrid cars.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Point is fuel efficiency helps the stocks of Honda and Toyota, including the work on hybrid technology. Hybrid sales have increased on the long-term trend. It it true there are now 900,000 Prius' on the road and they are now in the top ten in US sales? Whatever the figures - it's good. Even hybrid-skeptical GM is making a U-turn.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I am in a similar position to the original poster w/ my 2001 Prius which has 145,000 miles on it.

The warranty on the hybrid system was for 100K miles, but at the time I bought the car I couldn't nail anyone down at Toyota who would tell me how many miles I could actually expect the battery to last OR how much the replacing the hybrid battery would cost. I knew it would be a really expensive repair, but in my mind a really expensive repair is $1500 - not $5000 - which is the estimate I'm now getting from the dealership.

I had a friend who is an independent mechanic price a new hybrid battery for me. He said the cost w/ no mark-up is $3000. I don't think that includes the ECU (the computer that controls the battery) which also needs to be replaced.

I typically drive all my cars until the wheels fall off and when I get into the territory of expensive repairs (and I'm talking $1000 dollar repairs here), I either sell the car or having it scrapped. Of course, by this point the car is typically 12-15 years old so I've gotten my money's worth. (BTW, I'm now driving my 15 yo Mazda Protege to work w/ 210,000 miles on it while my Prius languishes in the driveway at home.)

My 2001 Prius is still a young car by my standards - only 5 years old - though admittedly high mileage at 145K. It has been extremely reliable w/ virtually no repairs over the life of the car. Even so, I'm still aghast at the idea of putting $5K worth of repairs into it when it's probably approaching that point when many other systems are going to start needing replacement as well.

Toyota and other hybrid car makers are going to have to find a way to reduce the cost of these repairs. Otherwise the cars are just not cost effective. With 20/20 hindsight I would now have never bought the car and would advise others who ask not to buy one either until the cost of replacing the battery comes down significantly.

Kelley Blue Book tells me that I could sell a Prius in "good" condition w/ 145K for $8,800. So, presumably, if I had sold the car a few months ago before the Master Warning Light came on indicating a problem, I could have made about $8,800. Whereas now, the car is essentially worthless unless I drop $5K into it.

I wonder what is going to happen to all the hybrids on the road as they start to approach the useful life of their battery?

I wouldn't be surprised if there is mysterious spate of Prius' being pushed into lakes when the odometer rolls over to about 140K miles. Guess I'll just tell the insurance adjuster I forgot to put the parking brake on...

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

:angry: Here is my fear. We already pay a higher price to purchase the hybrid in the first place no? We do it though because a. we are going to help the enviroment and b. save on gas money and make back the cost in a few years anyway...but....

if you pay 3-5 thousand more on the car, and then 3-5 thousand on a battery in 5 years or so..you kinda don't get the benefit of B. and may even lose money.

ah the cost of saving the planet!:angry:

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

This is precicely what I think Honda and Toyota need to be concerned with. We're now entering the era where more and more early hybrids are going to be hitting this mileage and need a battery replacement. So what happens when a major news source gets a hold of this story - the others will jump on it and you're going to get a ton of bad press on how the batteries cost $5K to replace and everyone should avoid buying a hybrid. I'll predict if that happens sales will fall off significantly and our resale values will be trash. We'll be stuck with these 10 year old cars with no resale value and a $3000 repair to make them operable again.

Not only would I never buy another battery-based car, I'd discourage others from doing the same. The last thing they need is to take 1 million happy advocates and turn them into disgruntled customers. But it sounds to me like they are starting to...

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

For me it boils down to what I expect the lifetime of a car to be and resale value.

If you are looking to get a wad of money by selling most any vehicle with +150,000 miles it will be listed for a long, long time. I just checked kelly bluebook http://www.kbb.com for used Civic EX sedans and only found two with that high mileage- for a price higher than I'd expect of around $1k.

I guess it can also depend on how one drives his vehicle. In my case is very, very light- I just replaced my OEM tires at 88,000 miles and brake pads are still as new. I would also think engine wear and tear is light, and should last longer than someone who demands more: IE driving it floored for max assist etc.

This is our first new Japanese car. I had a Chrysler Le Baron and at 120,000 miles was completely worn out. Next was a Dodge Spirit and at 125K the troubles were so numerous not worth fixing. Our Grand Caravan has 79K miles and seriously displaying wear. All those had been driven very hard.

Given my light driving demand and Honda reputation I hope to drive my HCH 350K miles, but I'm also realistic. I expect a battery change, possible CVT trouble and other repairs. Even though I think it's been a great value for our family and a pleasure to drive.

But as most other vehicles I don't expect it to be worth much of anything at +150K miles.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

This is the Private Party Value per Kelley Blue Book at 145,000 mile
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid Sedan 4D
I feel that they are high but look it up for yourself
Condition Value
Excellent $11,580
Good $10,615
Fair $9,360
Next Steps
Search Local Listings
Sell Your Sedan
Vehicle Highlights

Mileage: 145,000
Engine: 4-Cyl. 1.3L VTEC
Transmission: 5 Speed Manual
Drivetrain: FWD

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

deboytd,

Those Kelley numbers are similar to the Edmunds ones. There are more variables involved in Edmunds estimator (including zipcode and color), but (in my zipcode & light blue color):
clean (similar to excellent) private-party estimate is $11,144
Average condition is $8967, and
Rough condition is $7359.
Trade-in values are about $1400-1200-1000 less, respectively.

ALL these prices sound a little optomistic to me, too, for a vehicle with 145K miles on it.. :)

Sounds like you should get 'er fixed (as best you can), then decide if you want to sell it. You're still probably $4-5000 to the good if you decide to sell it.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

it makes since that we use more mileage a year in a hybrid. with lower gas costs, who doesnt' wnat to drive more? hybrids make driving fun again. it sux that the battery isn't cheaper and more efficient overall.

It is newer technology..but no longer new technology right?

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I'm actually very hopeful that by 2011 (when my warranty runs out) that the batteries will be reasonable to replace. They'll have to be or they will erode the confidence they've built in the technology.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I quite agree, Tim. In fact, this very issue is what contemplated the most before getting my 2006. I have 8 yrs/120K miles before I'll have to pay for new IMA parts (HondaCare extended warranty), and the battery and installation better be under $1K by then. If not, the resale value WILL plummet, and I'll buy something different (clean diesel?) the next go-round.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I have driven every car I owned to 150k or more, and I have NEVER needed a $5k repair on any of them. Not even the one with a new engine, that was only $3k. I sympathize with the original poster and with all of us if this is an inevitability. A car with a known $5k repair on the horizon is a really tough sell. It would be like guaranteeing that a car you buy will need its engine replaced at or before 150k miles. Who would buy that?

I am disappointed by this news and I really hope that as it happens more the prices will come down, but judging by the way dealers like to add a premium to anything that says "hybrid" on it, I am not optimistic.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

yes, i too hope that by then they will be cheaper. When i get my hybrid, im not going to want to drive it less! Im going to want to drive it more! But I don't want to be scared of having a 5000 dollar repair on my hands. The technology is not NEW anymore, although it is still NEWER. By 2011, it should be old hat, and they should be able to bring the cost down.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

This will be a good thing IMO. It will force the manufacturers hands. Which means we win in the end. The few hard hit in the beginning will pay the price.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

My battery pack was replaced at 94,000 miles - a little past the warranty. It was fixed for $450 in nine days.

I'm expecting longer life on the new pack. It's better - the software updates are better - and I know what to do for longer battery life. Most of you don't have a manual transmission - less of a risk. For me, it's don't pretend I'm driving a sports car with extended Assists, and keep the battery pack cool in the summer.

Another 150,000 miles with this battery pack and this Insight has reached 250,000 miles - a good life.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

You should do ANYTHING other than go to work. Maybe go play poker at a strip club

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Sorry to hear that your battery has failed.

As more of the HCH and other hybrids get over the warranty period, we should see people getting into the pack rebuilding business. 3K for 120 D cells is a preety severe markup. A lithium based replacement with the same AH and a smaller form factor should be possible for that price.
Just to put things in perspective though. I bought a salvage Insight CVT that had no keys. My local honda dealor is going to charge me $50 for the chip key, and $90 to program the car. $140 for a key that is probably worth $5 is just the way the dealors work.
The cost of ownership of the Hybrids will continue to be very high, as people are afraid to bring them to independants, and the independants are afraid to work on them. I am involved with a group that is holding hybrid training classes with the goal of training independants to service them, and to break the dealors monopoly.
Mike

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I have solved one problem I replaced the Catalytic Converter for $ 280.00 I purchased from the Converter Geek online (re certified converter) great to do business with, the dealer wanted almost $1100 with labor. It took a friend and myself about two hours, after running for a few hours the check engine light went off, the next step is to find a good deal on the IMA battery to replace myself.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Is there a reason for the much reduced cost? Is the Insight's battery pack that much cheaper? Or just the closeness to the warranty?

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

That's the spirit. I'm glad you solved one problem. Let us know if you are able to tackle the harder one! :confused:

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

My '03 HCH just rolled over 100,000, a couple days later my IMA light pops on. I brought the car to my dealer and they said it would be checked in the morning. Next day they called to tell me that the battery would need to be replaced (the car has been covered to 100k with a Honda extended warranty) and Honda would be covering the replacement.

My concern now is the new battery, the standard honda service warranty covers the battery for 12 mos/12,000. The service manager told me that the battery would most likely be covered by Honda well past that period, but made no indication of being covered to 150,000 by Honda (living in CA).

It would be seriously bad for Honda, if hybrid owners had to start popping for a new battery every couple of years at a cost of $4000/battery. Any ideas on the possibility of repairing the batteries? If a couple of cells go bad, they could be replaced at a cost much lower than $4000. Can the cells of one battery be used to 'repair' a number of batteries?

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

cjm, just to get an idea of who this is affecting, do you have a manual or CVT model?

Yes, it would be great if they could just replace the bad cells. We will have to wait I'm guessing to see what Honda comes up with... If they don't do anything then hybrids are in trouble.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Actually, a news story like that might be GREAT for us. They might lower the battery cost overnight to much fanfare

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

$1400 used on Ebay, with computer
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-...QQcmdZViewItem

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I have a CVT. I had a surprise waiting for me this morning, my car was completely dead, needed to call AAA for a jump. The one thing I noticed was that the IMA battery was competely discharged also. Does the IMA battery provide backup to the starter battery? Not sure why the car was dead, didn't find any lights on or any of the doors not completely closed.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Sounds like a mystery. If you figure it out, let us know, please! Thanks!!

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

I just bought my HCH-II on Thursday and put about 38k a year on my cars. I just thought I'd post here because I found this post amusing since the salesman I was dealing with mentioned replacing just the bad cells rather than the whole battery. I sort of smiled politely, though I was certain they weren't presently doing battery repairs that way.

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

The IMA is usually used as the starter for the car unless it is depleted or it is some temperature below freezing. Then the "motorcycle" battery as I like to call it, is used to operate a conventional backup starter, this is why you are still able to jumpstart your car.

When the 12v battery is dead, the IMA computer cannot determine the charge level of the IMA battery so it assumes it is dead and won't start it with the IMA battery, but uses the 12v conventional starter to start the car. Once started, the IMA computer will do a recalibration and will appear to have an empty IMA battery while it trickle charges it to see how full or empty it really is. Within 15 minutes your IMA battery should indicate it is at an acceptable level and discontinue the forced charging it does when it is low.
-13th

Re: IMA Battery Needs Replaced
 

Thanks for the detailed explanation 13th. So far my HCH has died twice on me, 1st time was after sitting for a few days, while I was away on business. Since, I live in southern California, I can really see 'freezing' as being a factor. Sounds like my "motorcycle" battery might be up for replacement in the near furture.

Where did you get the detailed description of the battery operation?